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00:00 Let’s see if this is going to work. The Twitter feed. See what we’ve got.
00:15 Slide. It’s working. Check. Yes, folks. We’ve got a little bit of
00:20 babbling here to see what we’ve got going. See what we’ve got.
00:30 The Twitter one will let scheduled it to start at noon. Maybe it’s going to hold the line until precisely
00:38 sick. Yeah, it’s holding the Twitter’s holding
00:45 it back until precisely noon. Interesting. Okay, that’s kind of a different thing.
00:51 Welcome to those who are sitting there waiting on YouTube. We are just a little
00:57 minor ahead of head ofhead of the queue here as we test to make sure we’re live
01:02 streaming out to Twitter. See what we got.
01:12 See up that
01:30 There we go. Is that
01:38 okay? One more time.
01:43 We will see what happen. All right. Well, let’s just uh roll on into uh YouTube. it didn’t quite work or
01:50 it might just suddenly take off live anyway. So, we will just uh take it away
01:56 and uh get rolling. First things first,
02:04 back up. All right, it’s interview 75 and we have Ryan Logan
02:11 from Influence WP and Change Log talking about the power of centralized change
02:16 logs and WordPress maintenance and more. Ladies and gentlemen, it is time for
02:21 WordPress plugins A to Zed, not Z.
02:28 Welcome to another episode of WP Plugins A to Zed interview show. In this episode, we are talking the power of
02:34 centralized change logs in WordPress maintenance with Ryan Logan, where we will be revealing how centralized change
02:40 logs can help website owners keep ahead of the curve in the everchanging plug-in world and more.
02:52 WordPress, the king of content management systems, powering the web with over 80,000 plugins to choose from.
02:59 How do you sort the junk from the gems? Welcome to WP Plugins A to Zed, where
03:05 we’ve been keeping the pulse of WordPress alive for over 16 incredible years. Join us every week for an
03:12 unrehearsed real talk breakdowns of the latest and greatest plugins, developer, and community member interviews. Some
03:19 weeks, Amber and I team up to dig in. others. I’m flying solo, unpacking WordPress news, demoing a standout
03:27 plugin, or sharing tips to power up your site. No scripts, no pluff, just the
03:32 good stuff from A to Z. So, plug in and let’s get rolling.
03:38 Well, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you happen to be hiding out there on the globe today. Coming to you direct from the brewery
03:44 overlook in beautiful southern Vancouver Island. I’m John Overall. Welcome to the interview show 75 on WP Plugins A to
03:51 Zed, where we’re thrilled to have Ryan Logan, the IT wizard turned WordPress trailblazer behind influence WP and
03:58 Change Log WP. From dodging high stakes crashes as an interimm CIO in the
04:04 cutthroat world of highfrequency trading to crafting a scam-free haven for plug-in deals and change log mastery.
04:11 Ryan’s ditched the corporate grind for a life fueled by community vibes, craft bruise, and a fierce commitment to
04:17 amplifying the little guy in our sprawling sprawling ecosystem. Whether you’re a plug-in pedalling dev hunting
04:23 ve partnership or a site juggling agency owner chasing update nirvana, Ryan’s got
04:29 the unfiltered wisdom to keep your WordPress world spinning smooth minus the affiliate fluff. So, grab that IP,
04:35 settle in, let’s dive into the deals, the drama, and the downright dogged dedication that’s making Change Log WP
04:41 and Influence WP the go-tos for genuine WordPress wins. Let’s get started.
04:47 Welcome to the show, Ryan. Hey, John. Thanks for having me back. Oh, yeah. Well, happy to have you back.
04:53 And, uh, you know, we had a really good time on the last show. This time around, we’re going to a little differently than
04:58 before, but what the heck? I’ve been working out my my routines here. First
05:03 off, before we get going, for those who don’t know who you are, we’re going to go a little bit of background history of
05:09 you. Take us back and talk to us a little bit about back in the days when you were an intern grunt uh doing CIO
05:16 high frequency trading and what what was it that led you to WordPress?
05:22 Yeah. So, I started my IT career in 1997. Uh started out as an intern. Uh
05:29 literally sitting in data closets. My task was to watch the lights blink on
05:34 the routers and the switches and to report back and say, “Hey, these are the ports that are the chattiest.” And uh so
05:41 I went from that to landing an internship and then just worked my way up over the years. And right before I
05:48 exited corporate, I was uh a interim CIO. So my best friend at the time was
05:54 actually the CIO and he left the company. I took his spot until they found a replacement. So, I went from the
06:01 the bottom all the way to about the top uh before I exited and then I started my
06:06 own IT consulting firm and then I was just asked over and over again uh can you build us a website and I just kept
06:13 saying no no no. So, one weekend I locked myself in my apartment and taught
06:18 myself WordPress and the rest is history pretty much. Well, that’s the one joy about WordPress. If
06:24 you have any technical skills, you can learn it all really fast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then also I I
06:31 really have a design a real passion for design. So I I could never really uh
06:37 exercise that muscle with the IT world. So uh it was a perfect marriage for me uh the tech and the design. So
06:44 well let’s uh talk about between dogs, hikes, craft beer, bourbon tastings. You know you’re a pretty busy guy outside of
06:51 the code cave. How do those sorts of passions help you keep your mindset while you’re getting all your other
06:57 crazy things done such as Influence WP and Change Log WP?
07:02 Well, it’s it’s kind of like vacations. It’s something to look forward to, you know. So, I’ll just check out uh each
07:09 day, whether it’s walking the dogs or go sit outside and have a craft new craft beer that I haven’t tried before or
07:15 maybe a new uh bourbon I haven’t tried before. It’s taking those hikes with the dogs, with the family, uh traveling to
07:22 local breweries and whatnot. Just making sure you get out and as they say, touch grass um enough times to keep you
07:29 grounded. Yeah. So, as far as brewer uh beers go, what’s your favorite? IPAs or something
07:35 more darker? Which one? Where do you where do you land on that spectrum of beer?
07:40 Um I typically they laugh. I walk into a a new brewery I’ve never been to and I’m
07:45 like, “So, what beer is amber in color?” And they just laugh and they’re like,
07:50 “Yep, know exactly what you’re looking for.” That nine times out of ten will work for me. But I’ve recently started
07:57 getting more into IPAs. Um it’s just those are hit or miss for me because sometimes they’re a little too heavy.
08:04 But uh I literally I’ll try anything one time and and then um I actually have an
08:10 I keep track of everything I’ve ever tried. So, and I I used to keep track of all the ones I
08:15 tried. There was an app that I used to use that tracked all the different beers that I tasted those like for several
08:21 years when the craft brew blew up around us. Um, that’s why I say brewery overlook. I’ve got a craft brewery right
08:27 off my balcony from my apartment that I stare at and smell what they’re brewing on a regular basis.
08:33 Yeah. I use the I use the untapped app. So, it plug plug for untapped app. But
08:38 that that was it. That’s what I used to use. Yeah, I would actually. Yep. So, I real
08:45 quick like this where I live in near Charlotte, North Carolina is a big time brewery spot. Um, and I’ll actually say
08:52 my favorite are from right around here. And it’s not just because they’re local. They are literally like my favorite.
08:57 Well, that’s the joy of it. And all my favorites are my local ones. Like I’ve got three breweries within walking
09:03 distance of my h of my apartment. Yep. So, it’s always nice to need one. Just grab a growler, go fill it all up. 100%.
09:11 All right. Well, we’ve had you on the show before back in interview 65. So, what’s evolved for you over the past
09:18 Well, that was back in March, I believe. Um since March with um WP Influence and
09:24 what what brought about change log WP? Uh well, Influence WP turned one, we’ll
09:32 call it September 1st, so this month. Um what’s changed there is a couple big
09:38 changes. one, I used to try to be everything to everyone. So, I tried to promote podcasts, newsletters, all of
09:44 that. Um, hosting companies. I quickly found out that, um, I’m going to be able to serve WordPress best if I focus on
09:51 WordPress product creators. So, that was a major shift, uh, a very welcome shift because it makes my life a lot easier.
09:59 Um, I know who I can help the most. And then the other thing, too, is I used to I used to have to do a lot of partner
10:05 outreach to get this thing really spun up and active. Um I’m finding now that people are starting to come to me which
10:12 is making my life so much easier um there. So they’re coming to influence WP
10:17 asking me to be a part of it. So that’s uh it also it’s encouraging whereas before I had to do the outreach. Um
10:24 change log WP was some a passion project as well that’s always been in the back of my mind. I I always knew that I was a
10:31 developer short of making it happen. So you have to find a developer that’s uh also passionate about the subject matter
10:37 or it doesn’t really work. Um and then that’s where a partnership was formed to
10:43 bring it to life to to solve problems and to help people not just to do something that we just thought was
10:48 interesting. That’s quite fantastic. Now with the
10:54 influence WP, we’ll touch on that real briefly before we dive into change log.
11:00 Now tell us a little bit um it we a lot of people know but not maybe not
11:06 everybody in the audience here uh knows what are the benefits of influence w of
11:13 deep tripping over the acronyms there influence WP what are the benefits of it
11:20 and how does it help not only the creators of products but also the users
11:26 of those products yeah so starting with the creators. Uh
11:31 what I hear quite often um from the creators, they they’re developers. They’re not marketers. I’m actually I am
11:38 not trained. I’m not a marketer. I don’t consider myself a marketer. I just You’re getting real good at it.
11:44 I’m trying. Yeah. But there’s like the they just want to code. um and they don’t want to do the marketing and they
11:50 don’t really have maybe they’re just starting out and they don’t really have a lot of money coming in from their plugins or themes or whatever and they
11:57 want they’re they’re looking for a way to get their their name out there but they don’t have the money to take on a
12:03 marketing firm or pay lots of money to be whatever sponsor some some things.
12:08 So, this is a literally a free way for them to extend their customer reach. As
12:15 long as they offer, all I ask is they offer a deal to the WordPress community, then they’re in for free, and I will go
12:22 to bat for them and and help them spread the word. Um, if they’re not able to offer a deal, they don’t like that model
12:28 for whatever reason, they can just pay a very, very small fee just to help me keep the lights on and I’ll still do the
12:33 same amount of work for them. Um, so I’ve been there. I’ve had products I didn’t know where to turn. I didn’t have
12:41 uh the channels, but not all of those things at the same time. So, if you are
12:48 purchasing anything in the WordPress space and sometimes even outside like things that help you with your WordPress
12:53 site that aren’t WordPress products, like video recording software for example, you should check InfluenceWP
13:00 first before you purchase any of that. I don’t, like we said, I don’t get an affiliate commission or anything like
13:06 that. It’s just me helping these product creators spread the word. But you are gonna in almost every case you’re gonna
13:14 save more than you are on another website that offers similar deals.
13:20 Excellent. And so sorry I I got sidetracked there. I was
13:26 having a minor technical glitch that uh I’ve solved.
13:32 Um yeah. So now I just got to pull my brain back in because I I’ll continue. There’s one more point.
13:38 I’ll let you think about it. You you continue. Yeah. There’s one more really good point. You continue get one more real good
13:43 point and of course Hey folks, this is all live and tape so I’ll edit it out and post. Hey, all the all stuff.
13:49 Yeah. So some of the push back I’m going to talk about one of the push backs. One of the push backs I get from product creators is the deals. Uh it’s not very
13:56 often but once in a while I get one. So I’ve literally had a big company which they are now a partner. Um, we went back
14:02 and forth. Uh, no, we we don’t really do that. And I said, “Hey, did you you know, you have an affiliate program. You
14:08 are you are giving away 30% of your revenue to your affiliates. What are
14:14 they doing for you?” Well, they’re putting their link on a page and we’re paying them. Okay. Why not give
14:19 Influence WP at 30% as a upfront discount or hey, let’s just make it 20%
14:25 upfront discount and you never have to pay me an affiliate commission. how does that not make sense from a business
14:32 standpoint? And they they would go back a couple of days and then I would get the email that says, “Yes, you have a
14:37 very good point. Let’s do it.” So that’s the thing I really want to drive home to
14:43 people. It’s like if yeah, you have an affiliate program, that’s absolutely fine. Continue running that. But this is a different approach that you can also
14:51 take, right? That I really want to drive that home. You’re giving people a discount on the
14:57 front end. It lowers the barrier of entry. You are rewarding them from the start. Whereas with an affiliate
15:03 program, you are rewarding somebody for literally putting a link on a page and making your customers pay higher prices.
15:11 So to me, it it just makes total sense, but it, you know, it’s still a sticking
15:18 point for some. Well, that one does that one does sort of make sense. I I wouldn’t understand why a business wouldn’t do that. I mean,
15:25 one of the requirements I understood from influence WP, unless you’ve modified, is that you wanted the deals
15:31 to be as good as their affiliate or better than their affiliate program. So, if the the deal was if you are
15:38 offering a deal on the web to some other partner and it’ll say it’s 20%, all I all I ask is that you match it. I’m not
15:45 asking for special treatment, right? I just want customers, consumers that sign up for Influence WP when they hit that
15:52 deal that it works and that they know they’re getting at least equal to the best deal on the web. I want people to
15:58 be able to trust these links that they hit. Okay. So, so what you’re looking for is the best
16:03 deal that they’re offering on the web, whatever they’re equal to. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, you want to be
16:08 equal to whatever the best deal they’re offering out there on the web where it would be because I know there’s there’s companies that have varying levels of
16:15 deals at different places. Yeah, I’ll give I’ll give you I’ll give you another example. I just this
16:21 happened this past week uh last week. Um they someone came to me, a partner, and
16:26 they said, “We can’t do this level of discount anymore because our other partners are not happy because they’re
16:33 not getting the same.” And then I said, ‘Well, this is what you go back and you tell them. Tell them you’re taking their
16:39 affiliate commissions away and then and then you’ll give them the same deal you’re giving influence WP. See how they
16:45 react. And they said, “Yeah, they’re not going to go for that.” I go, “There’s your answer.” Yeah, you’re paying your affiliates more than
16:51 I’m asking you for. So, it’s a no-brainer. And they came back and they said, “This is like a big
16:57 company in WordPress, too, by the way.” And they said, “Yeah.” They go, “Nope, we’re good. We’re going to stay with
17:02 you. Keep the percentage.” Well, there you go. Um, yeah. Um, yeah, that’s what you want to do. But what
17:08 that says is I know that uh Influence WP has started to make lots of inroads all
17:14 over the place. I’m starting to see more and more more and more of it out there in my Twitter feed. Aside from what you
17:20 put out, I’m starting to see more from others, which is a good thing. Um, which
17:25 means you’re starting to gain ground. Now, you’ve also mildly ruffered a ruffled a few feathers lately when you
17:31 uh introduced your weekly newsletter now that you’re finding out how much joy a newsletter can be. And uh you know, the
17:39 unfiltered newsletter, it’s really quite good. You do have a little differently than what I see a lot of newsletters.
17:46 You only if you’re signed up for the newsletter do you get it. You don’t have a web page that’s got an archive of
17:51 them. What was the choice behind that? What what why did you go that route?
17:58 Well, when I first started InfluenceWP, one of the things, one of the pillars was a bad
18:04 actors program. I wanted to point out people that were doing people wrong in the WordPress space. Uh for whatever, I
18:12 just decided not to do that. I I just didn’t want to do that anymore anymore. So, it’s always been in the back of my
18:18 mind that I I feel like practices, maybe not specific people, but practices should be called out. In some cases, you
18:25 have to call out people. It’s just the way that it is. I mean, you saw may have seen the other day I posted something and I literally had someone say name
18:33 names. So, when you see someone’s telling you to name names, that tells me that people are open to that. So,
18:39 y in the unfiltered section of the newsletters, which as you said, you have to be a subscriber to get. I didn’t want
18:45 to just come out and blast it all over the social medias, all of those things. I didn’t want to do that. I wanted to
18:50 kind of It’s not a way to get subscribers by any means. It’s just I wanted to keep it um just within the
18:58 newsletter and and not blast it out to the world. If it gets out, it gets out. It’s not I’ll I would tell people right
19:04 now everything I said in nothing I’m hiding. No. Um, but it’s um sometimes you just
19:09 need you just need to call people out on certain things and uh just since
19:15 starting Influence WP, I’ve ran across some not so pleasant individuals and not
19:21 so pleasant companies and um it’s just amazing that when you try to help people
19:26 for free that they there’s just that much animosity out there. Uh but it can be a tough it can be a tough slo.
19:33 That’s for damn sure. All right. Well, let’s uh change our focus here to the change log WP and let’s talk a bit about
19:41 this because this one here is a unique idea. The thought had never occurred to me to try and collect the change logs
19:48 and I know how important change logs are to me as a person who manages, you know,
19:54 lots of client websites and I’ve got to go in and update a plugin. The change
19:59 log is the first thing I look at to see what’s going to happen because everyone’s, oh, just do your updates.
20:04 They they let auto updates happen. Well, I learned years ago that you do not do that on an active site if at all
20:12 possible simply for the fact that even a company that you’ve come to depend on for several years of perfect updates
20:19 could have one update that has a code error that they didn’t anticipate. or maybe somebody fixing the code took out
20:26 a semicolon and broke the whole thing. So it brings down and white screens your website. So the change log is important
20:33 that I can look and see, okay, what changes did they make? What did they adjust? What sort of things that happened? Now change logs vary in their
20:41 usefulness depending on who’s creating them, but they’re still helpful. So
20:46 where did this idea come from? What sort of brought it about? Yeah. uh running a WordPress agency
20:54 since 2016 uh managing multiple multiple websites uh you need the change logs are
20:60 so critical to know to systematically how to roll out updates the right way
21:05 you know whether it’s updating your site first um updating you know like certain client sites that aren’t like critical
21:12 and then you’ve got those client sites that you know that are super hyper critical you just doing those stage
21:18 rollouts change logs become super important for that you got to know what’s in them, um, when they were
21:23 released, um, all of those type types of things so you can make educated decisions on when
21:29 to press, you know, press that update button, so to speak. Um, but, uh, so like if you’re if you’re
21:36 an agency doing website care like I am, you might have a tool that is centralized that gives you those, but
21:43 they don’t there’s certain like premium plugins and stuff like that don’t always give you the change log. it’ll literally
21:49 come back that tool and it’ll say we can’t we can’t give you that information. Um, so what you’re left to do is you’re
21:56 you got to go out and you got to find the website for the plugin. You got to hunt down their change log and then like
22:01 what I do is I have like this whole entire folder of bookmarks for the plugins. But the problem with that is
22:07 then if you go and you add another plugin to your stack, you got to start the hunt all over again and hope that
22:13 you find it and bookmark it. And that’s just one side of the equation. We’re just talking about agencies. Like we could get into the the
22:21 professional that’s not doing website maintenance. We can get into the DIYers that have no clue what a change log even
22:27 is. Yeah. Like there’s so many levels to this.
22:32 There is. Now, with the premium plugins that you just mentioned and their change logs, yeah, I understand the pain of
22:38 hunting them down. Now you’ve started change log WP by tapping into the
22:44 WordPress repo for change logs. How are you integrating the change logs from
22:50 premium plugins into this uh system? So that that is what we are working on
22:57 right now to try to figure out. So you have some premium plugins that are
23:02 selling with one platform and then others are selling with another. Some are rolling their own and you have to we
23:10 have to get all of the use cases gathered up. We have to do the testing. We have to figure out how to get those
23:16 in to build the documentation to build those systems to see if we can automate any of it. So we are working behind the
23:22 scenes to find all of these individual use cases um as we speak to make to make
23:28 that happen. If that’s my computer doing that. No, that was mine.
23:35 Okay. I thought I’ I thought I had turned them off, but uh I didn’t.
23:40 I usually turn them off. Now they’re turned off. Now the notifications. Yeah, that’s me because long as it’s not me, I’d feel bad if it
23:46 was me. No, no, that’s that’s that’s my system saying, “Hey, you’ve got emails.” Yeah, I know I’ve got emails. Go away. I’ll
23:52 look at them again. I’ll look at them again in about half an hour or so. All right. So So you’re working through
23:59 the process here of getting the change logs from all the premium plugins into everything. And yet there’s multiple
24:06 areas you got to go chase these down whether they do them like I do I do mine
24:11 on the plugins I’m creating over I keep my change logs over on GitHub. There’s some sources that you know you buy the
24:18 plug through Fremius and I’m not sure the change log I always find it over on the developers website.
24:24 Yep. And that’s the sorts of things that I see the problems you have is most of them will be on a developer’s website
24:31 and uh finding out if they’ve even got an RSS feed for their change log. And some of them do their change logs really
24:38 oddly where they’ve got the most recent changes but they don’t have the whole
24:44 history going back. Like for instance, it’s not uncommon for sometimes take two
24:50 or three weeks to do an update and unplug, but they’ve updated it three times, you know, and they so we’ve got three
24:56 change logs missing from it from the most recent and going forward. What how
25:02 is that sort of thing um giving you grief?
25:07 Um, I can’t really speak to the premium side of things yet because it’s still, you know, work in progress, but like the
25:12 the the free plugins, like if you go to change Log WP now and look at it, it’s
25:18 like you said, you’re going to see you’re going to see some that have the full change log since the beginning of time, uh, some only have the latest,
25:25 like I’m looking at one now on my screen that’s got like the last three. Um, so
25:31 it it’s a thing. Um, but if you go I’m just clicking around them right now and
25:36 just kind of checking them out. Yeah. Well, I’m clicking I’m clicking through a couple here from the website for folks to take a look at here on
25:42 YouTube. Yeah. But I mean at at a minimum we need that most recent at I mean at an
25:48 absolute minimum. Um that helps greatly just having that last one. Um,
25:54 well, the last one’s very important, but if you’ve if you if you’ve managed to miss a few versions of a plugin,
26:01 sometimes you’ll want to know what they’ve done. Yep, 100%. Like I just clicked on one right here. It’s beautiful. It goes all
26:08 the way back to 1.0. Um, the problem is with this one, there’s no dates.
26:13 So, which that is a real pet peeve of mine. And yeah, I always want the dates in there because
26:20 you have to have the dates. Yeah, that’s the one interesting thing about change logs. There’s been no consistency in how
26:25 they were how they were created and put together. It it it takes
26:31 three seconds to add the date. Just just add the date. Yeah. Well, takes three seconds or, you
26:36 know, like when I’m creating my change logs, I just I just copy and paste the previous the previous change to date and
26:42 then put in the latest information. So, if if you can type in 2.0, know you can
26:47 type in January 1st, 2025 or whatever it is or whatever it is that you do there.
26:55 Okay. So, for plug-in authors, plug-in developers out there that might be listening to show, what is the what do
27:02 you want to do to what’s the pitch for them using change log to help build user trust with their sites, with their
27:09 plugins? So, there’s a couple different things. you know, if this thing goes the way we
27:15 hope, you know, it’s going to have a lot of eyeballs on it. Uh, people just perusing, seeing what’s out there. U,
27:22 there’s also kind of back to what I said, developers just want to develop. They don’t want to. There’s probably a
27:28 reason they don’t put version numbers in there. Probably a reason they don’t make them look pretty all the time. Or, you
27:33 know, you’ve got some websites out there that have gorgeous change logs. They put a lot of effort into them. Um, some
27:39 developers may not even want to be bothered and, you know, they just want a way for us to collect them and display
27:44 them for them. Um, so there’s incentive there. We we have long a long-term plan
27:49 to do a unique service. Uh, whether that ever comes to fruition, but we do have a plan to help people display change logs
27:57 on their website in a in a pretty way. Uh, so that’s uh coming hopefully in the
28:02 future. But um I would just say the eyeballs, you know, people are here browsing the site looking for change
28:08 logs and you know they click the drop down arrow eventually we’ll say premium
28:14 you know what’s out there. um just getting more eyeballs on your stuff. And
28:19 I if our copy on the website is doing its job, people new to WordPress, uh
28:25 yeah, I guess even people using WordPress for a while, they want to keep up with change logs, then there’s
28:30 incentive to be listed here and be searchable and let people um add you to
28:37 their watch list and so they can keep track of what you’re up to. So, I think there’s a lot of value in it.
28:43 There is. And you even have a nice search function for hunting things down on it.
28:48 Yeah. And actually it it’ll actually unearth things that you can’t get from the repository if you want to have a
28:53 have some fun with it. Yeah. Well, there’s lots of uh external tools to unear stuff from the repository
29:00 that you can’t find in the repository. Yeah. It’s a strange
29:06 phenomenon that’s irritated me for years with the uh WordPress repo. Yeah. If and if you we’re trying to be
29:13 uh to offer more more value to so if you go into like one of the change log listings you’ll see on the right hand
29:20 side it kind of mimics the WordPress repository. What we’re hoping to do is add things that you can’t do right now
29:25 in the repository which is sort by um like last updated PHP requirements
29:32 tested up to those types of things. Oh those would be some nice sort functions.
29:38 Yeah. So it’s just Yeah. So, it’s just right now it’s just the priority. We’re working through the priority of things
29:43 and that’s getting the the premium stuff in there. And then this whole the whole faceted and search system will continue
29:48 to evolve so we can unearth plugins easier for people, surface those plugins
29:55 easier and have better sorting and stuff like that than what you have we have now.
30:00 The building of uh change log WP must have been quite the feat to pull
30:05 together. Did you get much push back initially when you were trying to build this out and get it launched?
30:12 Push back from the community, community, developers, um WordPress,
30:18 anybody. Did anybody or did people people work to embrace it? Oh, I I’ve I think we’ve heard nothing
30:26 but really good stuff, especially behind the scenes. Uh I get emails all the time. Um how do I get my plugins in? And
30:33 I’m just we’re it’s we’re trying. We’re trying. you know what is what what platform are you selling on you know it’s it’s a it’s an information
30:39 gathering uh problem right now. Yeah. But um the the response has been
30:45 great especially behind the scenes there’s been a lot of good uh like on socials a lot of good interaction but
30:51 behind the scenes it’s those emails that we’re getting like hey we want to be part of this how do we become part of this
30:58 yeah so the reception’s been great I have there I think on social media there was a couple people that kind of had
31:04 reservations about um especially on the premium side of things like how are you
31:10 how are you talking to our sites and things like that but we you know quickly said it’s it’s opt in like you it’s
31:16 we’re not scraping your sites. Yeah. You know you know so there’s a couple of those outliers that we we squashed those
31:23 and said hey we’re just trying to do the right thing by you guys here. We’re not you know this is just a a feel-good help
31:30 help people project. Well that’s the whole idea is you want
31:35 to be helping people and and helping bring more useful tools to the WordPress ecosystem. The WordPress ecosystem’s
31:43 gone through a massive transition in this last year. It’s been very interesting to uh see as I’ve
31:49 reintegrated myself back into it. Now, with with all of you got going on
31:55 here um and with WordPress itself bringing on their AI team for AI
32:01 integrations and stuff, how would you see Influence WP and W and change Log WP
32:08 futureproofing creators against that title wave? that’s coming down the pike because that is coming. The the AI is
32:14 coming. We can’t stop it. I mean, just this last year alone of usage has been incredible.
32:19 Um, which which AI specifically are we talking about? Creating websites, creating plugins.
32:25 I’m not even certain. I haven’t even done I haven’t even done the deep dive yet or the dive into what uh automatic’s
32:31 doing with for the AI team that they brought on for WordPress. I’m not sure what they’re doing yet. I know they
32:37 brought out something a couple of weeks ago, but I was so sidetracked in cro um
32:42 projects that I didn’t have the time to look at it and so it got set to the side. But I know that they’ve got an AI
32:50 team to integrate AI into WordPress core itself.
32:56 I if I if I think I understand what you’re asking, I would say that if influence if there is a reason for
33:02 influence WP and change log WP to never exist, then that means WordPress no
33:07 longer exists. Yeah, I think that’s my response to that because if they’re going to do something with AI
33:14 that eliminates plug-in creators, theme creators, well, theme creators probably coming before plug-in creators.
33:21 Theme creators are I think they’re theme creators days are limited, I believe, myself.
33:26 I I do too. I do too. Um, but if if if their AI eliminates these product
33:32 creators, then yeah, change log WP goes away and influence WP goes away, but so
33:38 does the ecosystem. The ecosystem’s gone. Like there’s WordPress will be WordPress would be
33:43 gone if uh you eliminate the creators, the product creators. They they made WordPress. It was the whole reason why
33:51 when I was opting to create WP plugins A to Z, I had thought about themes and I looked at themes versus plugins and what
33:58 plugins were doing to WordPress and how they changed it. I’ve been working with WordPress since it was literally just a
34:04 blog. it could do nothing but blog. And when they introduced the custom post
34:10 types and people took that and ran, it became something more than what was
34:15 anticipated. And it’s done nothing but extend upon it. And many plug-in developers have found other ways to hook
34:22 into the hooks of WordPress to there’s some incredibly some incredibly
34:27 complex websites that are created on WordPress, but it wouldn’t be possible without the plug-in ecosystem.
34:34 Yeah, I mean you look at uh automatic’s new telix system AI system for creating
34:40 blocks with AI and le let’s say that that is as successful as it could possibly be you still are
34:48 going to need product creators to do other stuff. So, I’ll just say it again
34:54 like if Influence WP had to go away and change Log WP had to go away, that means WordPress is probably
35:00 not not I wouldn’t say not in existence, but it’s a shell of what it is. Like,
35:06 yeah, what we know it to be. Um, they’d have to bring every literally
35:11 everything inhouse and that’s it. Like like that’s the only way.
35:16 Yeah, it’s not possible. The WordPress ecosystem has become too bloody huge. you you would lose all of those people
35:23 out there like me that are proponent like that are sticking up for WordPress trying to push it forward doing all
35:29 these you’re going to lose all of those people doing that right uh that free marketing
35:34 that free marketing is what made WordPress so viable I was part of that marketing in the beginning I even had
35:39 courses that I taught the local uh a local night school yeah
35:45 yep everybody wins if with how it’s going now as long as we just steady the course you you know, shore up some
35:52 things that have happened, keep the train going down the tracks. I mean, we we can keep it going. So,
35:58 well, let’s uh let’s give a shout out. Who do you think is one of the unsung heroes? We’ve talked off and off and on
36:05 through this about promoting people and promoting the the
36:10 small or the ones that are doing unique unique things. Who do you think would be
36:16 an unsung hero that’s dropping knowledge or tools that deserve a little bit of spotlight right now?
36:22 Dropping knowledge and tools. Knowledge or tools? Knowledge or tools. They they don’t always go hand inand
36:28 knowledge usually works out to be tools, but knowledge starts before tools are
36:33 created. It’s gonna sound really cliche to say this, but it’s there in Influence WP.
36:40 It’s it’s it’s almost all of the partners are doing this. Like it’s and this what’s what frustrates me the
36:46 most. It’s why I dropped that comment about podcasts. Yeah. The other day that stirred some drama is
36:52 there’s so many people doing cool stuff that they’re not being surfaced. Like there it’s just I think I said this on
36:59 your show last time. It’s just these echo chambers of promoting people that are inside automatic or that are in these inner
37:07 circles. And that’s the problem. It’s like, let’s say you go on a podcast and some podcasts
37:13 give you a chance to talk about yourself, but they also say like you just did. Here’s your chance to mention somebody.
37:20 What what they’re often doing is mentioning somebody that’s sitting right next to them on the podcast like
37:25 it. So my answer to you is there are a lot of people doing really really cool stuff
37:31 that they’re just not being surfaced. And that’s what I am trying to do. It’s what I am trying to ruffle some feathers
37:37 and get more people to do that have a way bigger platform than I have. Um, but
37:42 the sad thing is like if I had to just answer your question with a real person, yeah,
37:47 it’s going to be somebody that’s already so built up, okay, by the inner circles and like I don’t
37:54 want to do that because we already know who they are, right? It’s the AI team. It’s the it’s the the performance team
38:00 with the Google folks that are now in WordPress, you know, building the all of that kind of stuff. And it’s it’s all
38:07 these people that keep getting the shine, which they so rightly deserve, but there’s a lot of other people that need it, too.
38:13 Um for the reasons we just said, like the product creators are what makes this thing go. We should embrace them more
38:19 and spread the word more. Um if it if it’s not influenced, if you don’t want to uplift influence WP,
38:25 that’s fine. Like let’s find something else to to to make that happen. Um, but
38:32 I’ve already built it, so that’s partly what I that’s partly what
38:37 we try to do here at WP Plugins A to Zed. And I’ve made that my goal throughout the entire time is always
38:44 finding the new plugins. For a long time, our show only featured plugins
38:50 that were just released, had less than 10 10 installs. Sometimes we end up with
38:56 some that have more, but a lot of times most of what we showcase here is about
39:01 the new developers and such. And yeah, the the post you made that brings us around to talking a bit about the
39:07 podcasting field in WordPress and what it is and where it’s at right now. It is
39:13 a lot of people that are stuck in echo chambers and they’re not breaking themselves out of them completely. A lot
39:19 of them they’ve established their brands, I guess, and that’s where they
39:26 stay focused and they often have the same guests on over and over again instead of reaching out to all the
39:32 smaller people to say, “Hey, why don’t you come on here and talk about it or trying to get out like I’ve been
39:37 reaching out to much in the same way that you had to with WP Influence. I’ve had to I had to
39:44 reach out to multiple places. I’m starting to get people reaching back out to me for interviews, which is nice. It
39:50 does saves a ton of work when they reach out to me versus me having to figure out how to contact them because some people
39:57 make contacting them so bloody hard. Yeah. Yeah. I think you I think you
40:02 already have, but like it just goes without saying like anybody you see roll through Influence WP, hey, just just
40:09 tell them like let’s do this. I mean, I I think they would all jump on the chance to talk to you. Yeah. Well,
40:16 because of the tweet you put out, I managed to find three people that were lesser known to reach out to off of
40:23 there. Um, because you managed to because you managed to ruffle some feathers and you popped a few things on it and uh out of
40:31 this out of this thread that came out. I thought it was rather comical when Jeffro uh commented that don’t make him
40:37 come out of retirement because he was the show that started just before me
40:42 and he was he was I didn’t know that. Yeah. He started his he started WP Tavern. He created WP Tavern originally.
40:48 Yeah, I knew that. And he kept it going for several years until his life changed and he had to put
40:53 it aside. Yeah. Yeah. And and because he built such a
40:59 reputation, Matt bought it up and it uh turned into what it is now, which
41:04 unfortunately it’s mostly hardly anything comes out of there anymore. Yeah. When he said that, like I didn’t
41:11 even need to go look it up. like I knew WP mainline like came to mind instantly. Um because that is like yours. That’s
41:19 the type of podcast that I you got me into loving podcast. It was hey you know
41:24 you could have sponsors but they are like behind the scenes that you go to the website sponsors are listed there.
41:30 You know maybe a small little mention but it’s like let’s get into the meat and potatoes. Let’s let’s talk about
41:37 something meaningful. Um, that’s why I loved that podcast and that’s why I loved yours and that’s why I love yours
41:43 and it’s why I loved like WP Water Cooler. I was sad when that went away because they had that same format like
41:49 let’s just get to the heart of things. Let’s get to the meat. Um, I find myself now like I’m I’ve I’m
41:55 not even kidding. I think I told you this before we hit record. I’ve been deleting podcasts. Like I just can’t do it anymore. It’s I I tried to resolve it
42:04 by putting people on playing it at 1.3 speed, but that is it’s like anxiety.
42:09 Like it’s just people talking way too fast and it’s like that didn’t work. So like all I got to delete it.
42:16 Um but it’s just it now it’s when I don’t do that it’s just fast forward and it’s like fast forward fast forward fast
42:23 forward fast forward. And I know people have to pay the bills. I’m not yeah against that. It’s just I think there’s
42:28 other ways to do that. There are other ways. One of the one of the great ways um like there was mention
42:36 about people like sponsors and whatnot. It’s like that I went down that route once before with my show um getting
42:42 sponsorships and dealing with sponsors I found to be not worth the headache
42:47 involved and then I flipped to the value for value model. In other words, if I
42:53 was giving value, audience gave me value back. They either promoted me or helped
42:59 us out like we used to have till I let the show mostly die back. People used to
43:04 provide artwork for us and links to stuff and people referred new plugins to
43:10 us. And then of course there were the people out there that gave us cash which was a nice thing. That was some validation of it. And the value for
43:17 value model is the one that only is truly the only one that works in podcasting. Podcasts eventually die out
43:24 if they’re dependent upon sponsorships because their content gets stale and
43:29 like your case, they’re like, you know what, I I just can’t handle this anymore. And it’s gone from their app and they’re no longer listening to it.
43:37 Yeah. Um I had some I’d have to search for it now. Um, I had some followup
43:43 people that were like post, you know, following up on my post and one of the things that I responded to said was if
43:51 people there’s different sponsorships level, right? There’s um, I’ve got a budget. I need to spend
43:56 my money. I’m just going to give it to some podcaster. Okay, there’s that. There’s there’s the friend of the show that, you know, wants their logo, all
44:03 that. There’s then there’s there was another one. There’s like a three levels, right? The but the problem
44:09 becomes then is if you are getting sponsorships just because someone has a budget to spend or they’re a friend of
44:16 the show, where’s the incentive to change to keep like to keep the format fresh or to
44:23 uplift um smaller players in WordPress or to
44:28 um maybe have some spicy takes, something like that. Like like where’s the incentive to do anything other than
44:35 what you just do every single episode? There’s none. There’s you already have your money. Yeah.
44:40 So now a year down the road so and so is like, “Okay, I’m I’m even tired of this
44:46 podcast.” Like this is ridiculous. Like dropping sponsorships for whatever reason. Then they’re like, “Uh oh.” Like
44:53 maybe all along we should have been, you know, doing different doing this differently.
44:58 Yeah. Uh you had you had mentioned you’d mentioned something about the numbers the you know people asking about the
45:04 numbers of downloads of a show coming directly from a podcaster knowing full
45:09 well how the system works. Nobody knows what their numbers are. I don’t care how much they pretend they do. What they do
45:16 know is the number of file downloads from their from their stuff but they don’t know if people actually listen to
45:22 it because there’s a lot of people that are on Ghost. It’s like even me on my
45:29 podcast app, it’s a ghost app sometimes. It’s like I’m not listening to shows for a few weeks, but yet the shows still
45:34 download to my app automatically, but I didn’t listen and I go back to it, it’s like I don’t want to listen to these back episodes and delete, delete,
45:41 delete. But yet those numbers were counted as downloads. And that happens across the board. Um
45:47 Oh, I didn’t think of that. Yeah, it happens across the board for listeners. And so nobody really knows
45:52 their li their their listenership. The closest they can get is if they’ve got a really good newsletter going and they
46:00 send out x number of subscribers to a newsletter that tells them how many people are subscribed to their
46:06 newsletter and getting information. That’s a little closer to a real number.
46:11 But the reality is it’s like tracking the numbers online of traffic to your
46:17 website. Are you counting the bots? You know, because there’s that other that’s the other thing that happens,
46:22 too, is bots will come in and download it to pump the numbers. Look, it’s the most downloaded show ever. Yeah. You had
46:28 10,000 bots come in and download a thousand shows each. So, it’s like,
46:34 so, go ahead. Yeah. Sorry. So, that begs the question then. Influence WP reaches out to
46:42 hypothetically get a sponsor. Mhm. What could you possibly give them a a
46:47 company then to convince them to sponsor you as far like because if you don’t
46:53 have the numbers that pretty much tells me that it’s who you know, right?
46:58 Yep. That’s that’s what it tells me. That’s often what it is that like numbers on the internet people I have
47:05 all kinds of numbers. We’ve got everything. It gives us a an idea on what’s happening. And Blake here had a
47:10 comment for us. He’s mowing the yard equals podcast time. The only time he listens to podcast. Thanks, Blake.
47:16 Greatly appreciate it. Appreciate you listening to the show here, too. Is that the the Blake that I think is?
47:22 That’s it. Blake Whittle. Hey, Blake. Yeah, we were talking about you earlier.
47:28 So, yeah. So, yeah. So, that makes me think like that makes me think then if if if we don’t have
47:35 numbers to show where are these sponsorships coming from, why? Yeah. I just I don’t really
47:42 understand the inner workings of it. It just seems to me like it’s I don’t want
47:47 to use it’s seems rigged. Seems rigged. Well, it could be. You could look at it in that aspect, but it’s also the aspect
47:54 of all right. So, somebody with X premium plugin, they want to try and
47:60 increase their downloads. They go through podcast and they think, “Okay, this podcast talks about a lot of stuff.
48:05 They reach they seem to reach a lot of people. They’re talked about online regularly.” And that’s where it is. And
48:11 if they reach out to podcast and say, “Yeah, well my numbers, what is my numbers?” Well, my YouTube numbers are
48:16 minuscule, you know, so I don’t have a YouTube numbers. It’s like we get a few people live. We get after show uh views
48:24 of it, as many as 78 to 100 views of the show afterwards. My podcast itself, like
48:30 this is recorded and sent out into my podcast feed. That number there pumps up. I know I’ve got at least 3 to 500
48:40 subscribers, but some some weeks I’ll see as many as 1,500 downloads of my show. You know, at one point in my
48:47 history, I would see 3 to 4,000 uh downloads of my show. You know, I’m my
48:52 numbers have been building nicely in the last year. they were down as low as like 50 60. Um that about this time last year
48:59 when I decided to make this show more vibrant and do these long form
49:06 interviews with people such as yourself that helps give them more information and reasons to listen to the show. It’s
49:12 like and for those that have listened this far in the show, you guys have just gotten some of the spicy stuff and a little bit of inside baseball for it.
49:20 Yeah. I mean, what we really need is we we need better analytics. We need how
49:26 long like, so yeah, you have 500 downloads for your podcast. How what’s the listener time? Like if your podcast
49:33 is 60 minutes long, but they’re only each person is averaging five minutes listening time. That tells you you have a problem with
49:41 retention. And you’re not holding the attention of these people. Your app downloaded it. They they don’t
49:46 really care what you’re saying. Um, I mean, man, if you could dive in and see when people are fast how like people are
49:53 fast forwarding like, oh my god, some of those numbers are starting to appear if people are using podcasting
49:59 2.0 apps and but certain podcasting 2.0 apps
50:04 track that information and pass that information back. I’m not sure which ones. I haven’t dug into that. But the with
50:11 all of the new podcasting 2.0 stuff, I don’t have it all attached to my podcast
50:16 yet. But once that information is going to that information will start to appear in the next few years as far as I know.
50:24 So there there is some things that are out there.
50:29 Yeah, it’s great. I mean, I’d love to see it. I think of like uh I think of like newsletters. Yeah, great. You have 5,000 subscribers, but if like your
50:36 click-through rate is Yeah. min minuscule, those numbers don’t mean anything. So
50:41 u I just I don’t know. I just feel like the podcast thing is we need more insight. I need more insight as to
50:47 what’s going really going on. But yeah, on the newsletter on the newsletter side there, I was dealing with uh a person that I’ve subscribed to
50:55 the newsletter for a long time. They were for a long time she always made it so people clicked in the newsletter to
51:02 go see the whole newsletter on her website. Then she stopped doing that, started feeding it in, and then she started wondering why her click-through
51:09 rates had dropped dramatically. and she didn’t take into consideration that part
51:14 of the click-through rate of a newsletter is the automatic downloading of images to um an email client. I have
51:23 my email client set up so no images are downloaded in any email that comes down.
51:28 So what happens I get a newsletter. They don’t get notification that I actually read it. I’ll I might read the text and
51:34 if I think the images are useful I’ll then download the images but probably a good 75% of the time I don’t. So they
51:41 don’t get a notification that I clicked on that or read that that newsletter. And that’s where part of the newsletter
51:48 problem comes in is you might be getting this low thing, but is it truly low or
51:53 are they just not allowing images to auto download to their email app,
51:58 whatever it happens to be. Yeah. And I know a lot of them default to not
52:04 downloading such as Google and and Outlook and others. They just they the
52:09 default setting is to not download images because once upon a time that was a source of spam and a source of
52:15 headache to your to your uh computer. Yeah. All those things. I don’t know. I
52:23 this the spicy the spicy side of me just wants to keep coming out. But I just whether it’s newsletters or podcast, I
52:29 feel like it’s I feel like it’s just it’s who you know. Maybe maybe it’s who you met at a word
52:35 camp. I I have not I haven’t gone to one yet, so I don’t have that facetime.
52:40 Um but it’s I just feel like it’s not the numbers. It’s something else that’s c you know making this
52:47 happen the way that it is. But oh yeah, it’s part of the it’s part of the reason I just said forget it. I I am not I’m
52:52 not doing sponsors. I’m just doing all this with my own money, my own time. I’m not I’m not doing it. Like
52:58 it it’s I don’t know. I don’t want to be sound sensitive, but it’s like it’s it starts getting hurtful after a while
53:04 when you give something this much time to a project for a year in WordPress and people won’t even like won’t even
53:10 entertain it because you are not so and so. Yeah, I’ve been there, done that, seen that one. Seen that one down. Seen that
53:16 one a few times. I’ve even I’ve even seen one of the most fantastic uh membership plugins ever created. I saw
53:23 the guy and I would talk to him back and forth until he finally just abandoned it and walked away because he got treated
53:30 so poorly in the community. Well, the along those lines you were
53:36 talking about like the unsung heroes and all that people doing good stuff like the I had another post. It wasn’t really
53:42 spicy but it was got some traction was mental health and behind the scenes there’s product
53:49 creators that are talk were talk like they’re talking to me about it. It’s a problem. It’s Yeah, it’s people wanting to pay nothing for
53:56 plugins. It’s people u being rude to them on support. It’s it’s the race to the bottom. It’s the
54:03 it’s the the being like held down um not being given a fair shot. Like
54:10 people are struggling. Um and it’s it’s it’s out there. It’s sad. Um,
54:16 on that on that on that one thought about people not wanting to pay for plugins and we’ll probably close out
54:22 with this little bit. It was the GPL issue because you made mention about
54:27 hating GPL plugins. In other words, the ones that have been nullled, not I mean all WordPress plugins are GPL just so
54:34 people know. I had to wrap that one in my head a few times before I understood what was meant by it.
54:39 But was that the Was that the the newsletter this week? Yeah, it was the newsletter this week talking about that. But what happened
54:45 was it led me down a route of doing some research real briefly and I found
54:50 something really surprising to me coming from well a site
54:56 that I really had some respect for is WP Mayor and they had an article in there
55:01 talking about the GPL abuse and all of these different websites that are
55:06 nulling plugins and what stuck out to me that I thought was wrong on the aspect
55:12 is they’re telling about how bad it is or whatnot and then they go down and list them. And one of the websites they
55:18 actually gave a discount code for people to use to go sign up to it. And I’m like, what?
55:23 Why would you do this and then encourage people? Here, here’s a discount code. Go sign up and get these n plugins.
55:31 That can’t be that can’t be. Is that really true? Here, I’ll bring it up for you. Oh my gosh. That That’s next level.
55:39 I I don’t I don’t talk about things that I don’t have some proof on. Uh, I was being rhetoric. Oh, yeah. I knew I trust
55:46 I trusted you, but I was just like, that can’t be true. Yeah, you should be able to see the shared screen. So, yeah. Yeah, I got it.
55:51 It’s right here.
55:57 That’s unbelievable. Yeah. So, that one there is like really It’s actually It’s actually kind of believable.
56:02 Well, that it’s very believable, but it was like really I Yeah. I don’t know what level of spice
56:09 you want me to take this, but this is this is a this this is a passionate passion of mine.
56:15 I’ve had I’ve had the same problem over the years because I inherited a couple of websites over the years where people
56:21 had used null plugins and the reason they came to me is because they were hacked. And it’s like once I found out,
56:27 it’s like, okay, this is why. and they had to pay me a decent sum of money to basically
56:33 undo all the damage to their website as I work hard to keep from using the swear
56:39 words. Yeah, it’s it’s it so yeah, we could we we we could do a whole show
56:45 on this topic alone, but it’s also it’s an education thing. people. What you just showed me on your screen
56:51 is what I’m so passionate about that that they are that they are soliciting that
56:56 they are not only not educating, they are encouraging the use of those sites.
57:03 Yeah. And people wonder why this stuff is happening. It’s like Yeah. And that was the one like WP Mayor
57:09 is a really good website. Had a nice pod have a nice podcast, but that one surprised me. If you have the platform that they have,
57:16 they should be leading the charge. in the education space for this. With a little luck with a little luck
57:21 and some effort over the next year, this platform will be a lot bigger. So,
57:28 it’s gotten it’s gotten bigger in the last year and it’s going to continue to grow because I’m looking hard to bring
57:34 in the people who will encourage the conversations around WordPress that have
57:39 not happened like they should. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, at any rate on that note there, I think
57:46 we’re going to wrap it up, I’m going to give an opportunity here where you can tell people where they can find you and
57:52 the links to the websites that we’ve showcased here, WP Change Log and Influence WP will be in the show notes.
57:58 Also, where you can find uh Ryan, all the links will be in the show notes where you can find him on social. So
58:04 take it away, Ryan. Yeah, InfluenceWP uh influencewp.com.
58:10 If you want uh to buy anything software related in or around WordPress, visit
58:15 there first. See if you can save some money. Uh changeelogwp.com
58:20 to find your favorite plugins or plugins that you are potentially interested in
58:25 and you want to track the progress, see what’s going on. Changelogwp.com and just go add those plugins to your watch
58:31 list. There we go. Well, thank you very much. Don’t run away on me. I’m going to play the extra credits here and I will be
58:38 right back with you. Reminders for the show. All the show
58:44 notes can be found at wp plugins az.com. And while you’re there, subscribe to the
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