WEBVTT

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there in the channel. Send out signal

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everything. I'm trying to get better and better all these prepping

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how much goes on behind the scenes. All right, that signal is sent out. You're all set.

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All right,

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ladies and gentlemen, it is time for WordPress plugins A to Zed, not Z.

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Welcome to another episode of WP Plugins A to Zed interview show. In this episode, we are talking privacy

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power-ups for WordPress with Han Skiller, where we will be revealing how Termageddon keeps your site compliant

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and amid changing laws and more.

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WordPress, the king of content management systems, powering the web with over 80,000 plugins to choose from.

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How do you sort the junk from the gems? Welcome to WP Plugins A to Zed, where

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we've been keeping the pulse of WordPress alive for over 16 incredible years. Join us every week for an

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unrehearsed real talk breakdowns of the latest and greatest plugins, developer, and community member interviews. Some

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weeks, Amber and I team up to dig in. Others, I'm flying solo, unpacking WordPress news, demoing a standout

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plugin, or sharing tips to power up your site. No scripts, no fluff, just the

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good stuff from A to Z. So, plug in and let's get rolling.

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Well, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you happen to be hiding out there on the globe today. Coming to you direct from the Brewery

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overlook in beautiful southern Vancouver Island. I'm John Ool and welcome to

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interview 74 of the WP Plugins A to Zed show where we're thrilled to have Hans Skittlerod the vice president and

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co-founder of Termageddon joining us for a deep dive into the world of WordPress privacy a former Chicago web agency

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owner who sold his 12person firm to focus on revolutionizing policy compliance. Hans brings his educators

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passion to help WordPress users navigate tricky laws with auto updating privacy

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policies and terms of service. We'll explore Termageddon's gamechanging features, agency insights from his

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entrepreneurial journey, tips to dodge fines, but even touch on his adventures with

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Adrin's beekeeping and great outdoors. And we're going to try to work into shot bomb. So, buckle up for a show of

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essential knowledge and fun. Let's get started. Welcome to the show, Heads. I knew that would get you.

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Yeah, it did. It did. I I I knew you right before this call started. You said I did my research and I'm like, "Oh

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gosh, I hope he didn't hear about the shot bomb." Oh, no. That was that was front and center in some of the research. It's like really I went trying to find that

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one out. That one there was kind of amusing. That's great. Um, and just a heads up, John, I did hear you see like you said

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something about auto updating privacy policies and then it kind of went quiet for a second there and then you came back in. Yeah. So

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that that would be a teams. Sometimes our audio will drop but it doesn't drop into recordings or what's going out to

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uh the YouTube channel. Oh, perfect. Perfect. It's a Teams thing. It's almost like they've imported some of the stuff from

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uh what was the program they had? We used to all the time

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Microsoft just killed it. Uh oh man, the only thing I know they killed they they killed Internet

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Explorer. That was a good day for us web designers out there. I remember that. Yeah. No, no, no. This this was the uh

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the voice o voice over thing and for some reason it's okay not in my head right now. Maybe my

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my second person will pop in there. Let me I'm just happy to hear that that all went through and um thanks so much for

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having me. Oh yeah. Well, welcome to the show. Now, briefly before we get started, I just want to do some for for some

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transparency. I am a uh agency partner with with Termageddon and we've been

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with them for almost a year. Well, not quite a year now. It was earlier this year I joined in there and started working with them. They've been so

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fantastic in support and service. Before I even knew who Hans was, he was answering my support emails for the

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miscellaneous glitches we've had along the way. and it's been so fantastic and their customer service sold me because

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they always go above and beyond. But I did want to let everyone know that that is part of it. But with all of that

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being, we're going to dive in and ask some questions. Let's talk a little bit uh briefly some of their background on

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you there. Know you've you've had a pretty good journey through things. You studied Miami University. You had a web

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agency in Chicago. What started your interest into say web development?

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Yeah. So, um, so prior to web development, I was one of the first employees at Groupon, um, back when

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Groupon was just this little bitty company. Uh, they kind of grew up a little or they kind of exploded in

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growth. Um, and, uh, I loved Groupon at the time, like, you know, hey, we offer

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a 50% discount only if a bunch of people sign up. And I really felt like it like engineered some real good social

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interactions. Yeah. But as the years progressed, I kind of just had this feeling in my stomach that

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all we were doing was discounting small business owners. um uh who didn't know how to market themselves online

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effectively um and basically reaping all the profits from all these small business owners. So, it really bothered

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me and I was just like, you know, if someone was out there to try to help these small business owners have a voice online and be able to showcase what

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they're passionate about online, they wouldn't need to cut themsel they wouldn't need to take 25 cents to the

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dollar for everything they advertise through like channels like that. So, so my motivation was just I was working

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with small business owners and I just felt like there was a better way to help them get exposure online. So, that's how I started.

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That's a nice working is to get small business owners. That's some of the things I'm working on now with my agency

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is we're working on ways to bring small businesses online inexpensive especially

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in underserved areas such as amazing like electricians and plumbers and

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places like that. They have nothing. And of course, we don't have the yellow pages anymore. where everybody used to

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advertise back when I had my automotive shop, but it's it's always a challenge. So,

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what kind of running a 12 person agency? It's like I'm small. I have like three people working for really a tiny place

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for the most part. What kind of challenges did you face running a 12 person? That's a pretty good sized team,

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you know? Um, I could probably spend the next hour talking about all the things I had challenges with.

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Let's touch on a little bit. We're going to we're going to be diving into something as everyone seems to think

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it's not exciting. It really is. Privacy policies and the privac deal with the privacy is actually quite exciting and

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interesting. It just sounds like a boring subject. That's right. Yeah. Sounds boring, but yeah, we'll we'll we'll peak some

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interest, I'm sure, if if anyone is willing to stick on. But um for as for running my agency, I would say like um

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what when when sitting back and reflecting on it, there's a couple big things I learned along the way. So, one

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like simplify your offerings. um like I was offering not just web design but I

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was also offering social media content creation, social media advertising, Google advertising, email marketing and

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I was managing people's email servers and the list went on and on and one day out of frustration because I just felt

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like we we were just a jack of all trades, a master of none kind of um I counted up we were offering 37 37

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different services and one of the best things we ever did was we said nope we're not doing XYZ. We basically cut

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out everything except web design and maintenance. And all of a sudden, our

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processes and procedures were far more easy to define, managing staff far more

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easier because we set a guideline together on like what the expectations are for particular stages of the

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development process and so forth. So by simplifying our offering, we standardized our our offering to the

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world and therefore we were able to start generating some real money and and that's when we really started to grow.

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Um I in and and to put it another way and one of the biggest lessons I learned I learned how to say no to people. Um

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now now I struggle with that. I'm not gonna lie. I do still struggle with it. I'm always out trying to help as much as

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I can. But but learning how to say no was the critical aspect. Like yes I

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could hop into your email server and figure out why your emails aren't sending but I'm not like and and and all

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of a sudden now I was focused on growing my business um and and trying to perfect my own offering. Yes, I understand not

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to learn how to say no. Just a quick one here. We've got uh Ryan from Influence WP popped in. He said uh tell hands hi

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for me and he has to pop in. I know Ryan. But yeah, he he was one of the first people I interviewed when I started

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bringing these interviews in. Oh, that's awesome. And I'm interviewing him again on Monday. Cool. For his new project. So anyway, he says

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he's got a dental appointment. He'll catch the replay later. Well, thanks a lot for popping in real quick, Ryan. We greatly appreciate it. Uh so yeah the

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the telling people no that was one that I really had to learn. I can understand that. So let's move along a little bit

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here. We'll start leading down the path to the privacies. How did uh you founded this company with your wife Danita Data?

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Donatada. Data. Yeah. Data. Anyway, you found it with her. She's a privacy lawyer. And what led you

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to founding Termagdon? I know you've told the story many times elsewhere, but hey, this is the first time here. Yeah.

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Was there was there a specific aha moment for you? Um I would say it was there was like an

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aha moment for me and for her and they were different. So I was sending her business for like she had a law firm

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practice where she'd write privacy policies but she was charging about 5k a policy and you know because she did it

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properly. She helped you find the laws that apply. She'd then research all those laws, determine all the disclosures you specifically need to

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make. And she did that again and again, but $5,000 for a privacy policy did not

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go over well for a good portion of my customers. And before I knew it, it's tough. Yeah, it's ridiculously priced. And and

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you know, it was a ridiculously good policy, but it just, you know, when you're when you had a $3,000 site be built for you or, you know, even a

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$5,000 site, paying the double to now have a policy is just not that's just not in the cards. So, I found myself

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copying and pasting privacy policies from competitor websites. Um, you know, I'm sure people use chat GBT these days.

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For sure. I am absolutely in that boat. And had I not married a privacy attorney, I probably would have kept doing that again and again. And you

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know, in passing, I told her, I was like, you know, for the client, she's like, why why do you only send me such a few clients? I was like, well, because

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everyone else would never pay that amount. And um I was like, well, she's like, what do you do? I said, I go and copy and paste other people's privacy

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policies. And she's like, you realize how bad of an idea that is, right? I'm like, h, you know? Um, and uh, so, so

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really the the frustration I had was that I felt like there was some middle ground be between like ripping off a

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privacy policy from somewhere else and just hoping you don't get sued and and like working with an attorney and paying

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a lot of money up front and then ongoing. So, and and then last but not least, I felt like we as web designers,

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we would get the question all the time, what should I do for my website policies? And I'd be sitting there be like, I have no idea. I'm not an

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attorney. And and so I felt like these these clients of ours, they depend on us

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so much for everything digital that like we should always recommend an attorney, but how nice would it be to be able to

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recommend a tech solution, too? So, so that was my motivation. I wanted a web I wanted a web policy solution that was

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built for agencies and their clients. My wife, she was getting tired of writing privacy policy after privacy policy. it

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got monotonous for her and she was kind of already envisioning like what if I like I feel like I could create a system

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that just answer I answer a bunch of questions. Fast forward to today and term now consists of over 500

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interchanging completely conditionalbased questions um which I don't think she expected at the time but

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so so she her goal she wants to build the most comprehensive policies in the world. My goal I just want customers to

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have an affordable solution for their small business website. Seems to me both you guys have hit your goals for the most part. Well, thank

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you. Alth although with the everchanging uh landscape of privacy laws, I mean when I

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started in this, there was one basic one in Canada because that's where I'm located. It was one basic that covered

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out the whole country. Now we have the basic one and each province has it has

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its own. Each one does it a little differently. Yep. So it makes it tough and that's

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where I really enjoyed working with Hermageddon because I answer the right questions for what province we're in and

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and for those of my clients that are in this in the states and into Europe and everywhere else. It's been really nice.

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Now can you thinking on that there talk a little bit about how termageddon's Oh,

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we're going to we're going to stop here for a moment on the name termageddon. I was wandering through some of your old

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tweets there and I came across the one that told us how Termageddon got its name

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and and and it basically went down to um something that it the policies were

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aging your Oh, okay. So, that was a complete joke tweet, but I think a lot of people took

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it as real. So, I was just messing around in my head with the name. Um, so termageddon and then if you read it kind

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of a certain way, it looks like terms aged term aged don. Yeah. So then I was

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like terms aged donata. So like uh terms of age data term against president my

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wife. So um I I thought it would be fun to throw a little trivia for it. At any rate

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tell us we had a good laugh. That was a good laugh when I tripped across it. um tell us a little bit about

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how the auto updating policies work and why they're kind of essential for

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Yeah. So, so I would say the I I would say the biggest thing website owners in general don't really realize yet is that

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privacy laws protect people. They protect people's data. So privacy laws

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regulate the collection of data. So people's names, their emails, their phone numbers, that is regulated data

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regulated by privacy laws. Well, when we have websites, we typically have websites that are visible not just

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across territory or province lines, but across country lines. Often, um, many websites embrace the idea of wanting to

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get leads from across state lines, for example. Well, when we're collecting data from different areas, we may need

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to comply with those laws. Even though we're located in one area, we may need to may need to comply with other laws

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because privacy laws protect people. They don't care where we as website owners are located. So, you know,

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stepping back, you know, I think it's great the fact that people have a right to their privacy. That that's something I'm not fighting against. I I absolutely

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believe in that. What I find to be frustrating as a small business owner is like, okay, I have a website and now

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because of that, I may be subjected to dozens of privacy laws just because someone could submit an inquiry through

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my website where I collect their data. And there in lies the challenge which is like wanting to respect people's privacy

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lights rights and hopefully avoid a fine or lawsuit um while also running your

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business. And so the way term works is step one let's figure out what laws apply because each law defines exactly

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what you're supposed to do exactly what you're supposed to disclose. So step one of term again um figure out what laws

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apply because only then can we ask the questions necessary to make the respective disclosures under those laws.

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So that's the essence of our tool. find the laws that apply, make the disclosures required under those laws, and then instead of copying and pasting

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text into your policy pages, we give you a little snippet of code, and that's what you copy and paste into the body of

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your policy pages. So now when well, at the time of this recording, we have another US state privacy law going into

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effect in 13 days. We're going to notify our impacted customers, push the newly required disclosures right to their

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policy pages. So you know, the benefit the term again to me is not just getting comprehensive policies compatible with

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today's laws. It is a strategy to keep up to date with the everanging privacy

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law landscape we now live in. And that's uh probably one of the things that helps set Termagdon apart from free

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policy generators or templates or the oldfashioned way. I'll admit I'm guilty

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of copying and pasting privacies policies from other that was back in the

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day unfortunately because I've been doing this for 20 years now. 26 years actually. But um

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um what you what happens when you when you notify the uh when laws changed that

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apply because of the questions people have previously answered into it. It allows an automated system to notify

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those people that hey something's changed. You got to go in and answer a couple more questions on your site.

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It'll update your policy and then boom because the code's there it automatically gets new text. Nothing has

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to be done. That's right. Yeah. and and and most recently we have ha we have had to ha

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ask customers um subset of our customers to go back in and answer some new question because uh the latest string of

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privacy laws are they're not real privacy laws in my opinion. Um they're

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only giving privacy rights under some circumstances not others. So we've had to ask our customers some additional yes

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or no questions but you're right once they answer those those updates get pushed automatically. Um but then we also just push uh newly required

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disclosures based on how the questionnaire was already answered. So um and then there in lies the strategy.

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It's a strategy to keep up to date with this stuff. Um because I think my wife is probably the only one aware on the

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planet of what next law goes into effect in 13 days. Like I have yet to meet anyone else who's even aware of it. So

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um but that's it right there. That's the value is the is the updates. Yeah. And that one there I I found quite

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nice. And the other the other value in it for those that become uh agency partners is that once you set it up, you

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can share the policies back forth which or you share them with your client so you can easily access the code that

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needs to be changed or updated or tweaked in any way. I think I've had once or twice where I've had to do that.

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And also that the client gets the information instead of being the go-between between them. the client

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100%. I know we'll talk a little bit here about like the setting up of a term

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policy. What give it just brief rundown. I've got a link that'll be in the show notes to an in to a interview you did on

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um a couple of days ago name of that the admin bar. the admin bar and you you

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walked through the entire experience for using Termagdon and that'll be

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linked so other people can go watch it. I watched it through a couple of times because I actually found some things in there I didn't realize.

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Cool. So it was very it's a very useful thing. So even if those that are current agency owners users or looking to be it go look

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at this one this walkthrough because it gives you everything for product 2.0. I started with you guys right when you

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were changing one to two. I think that's why you reached out with some support tickets. You came in. I was

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like, "Oh, wow. How do we not test for that?" And like, but that's, you know, that's the best thing about agency partners being our customers. Number

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one, they're understanding and they're really good with helping us generate the error so that we can go in and fix it up

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real quick. If you want, if you want errors, send it to me, man. I'll find the errors whether I intend to or not. They just seem to

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for sure. Yeah, that app was that app was three years in the making. So, yeah, you joined right when we deployed it. Uh,

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which is cool. That's great. No, it was it was great. Yeah, it was it was a bit of a it was a bit of a thing, but I found it to be great once I got it

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adjusted to the new interface. That's awesome. I'm happy to hear that. Um, but yeah, the way it works, um,

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we'll walk you through a series of questions. Um, you know, and and really our our motto is provide exactly what

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you're required to disclose. Nothing more, nothing less. I mean it it it can be that beautiful. In fact, that's

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exactly what that's exactly what privacy laws want you to do. Uh GDPR, perfect example, is you should not provide more

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information than what is absolutely necessary. Um and now I'm I'm my inner donata is ringing. I have my inner

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donata bell ringing in my head. You know, I do want to share with everyone today. Please note everything I share is not legal advice. It's forformational

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purposes only. Um none of this is legal advice, folks. Yes. Yes. Um but yeah, once you go

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through our questionnaire, you've now set up our tool to understand your needs as it relates to changing privacy laws so we can notify you those changes. And

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as John shared, um sharing license access is something I believe in so much. Um don't get me wrong, I know the

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benefits of white labeling. I white label many things um with my agency, but privacy compliance absolutely not. Um

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you should share access with your client. openly disclose that you're not their attorney and that you are using a

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third-party technology, not a legal service provider, um to help them with afford an affordable alternative.

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Yeah. Well, that's what it boils down to is an affordable alternative that's not a lawyer giving you the legal advice and

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that it helps was one of the first things, you know, I noticed like when I went through and did my own, okay, it was

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easy. I understood my company, but when you're setting up for somebody else, you can't answer the questions that only

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they can answer about their company and what they're doing. Bingo. Yeah, that you nailed it. A good

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example, and you probably know this for your customers, but one of the questions we ask is, "Do you make 25 million a year in revenue or not?"

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We don't ask that for fun. We don't ask, you know, we don't just like we're not like sneaking on you. No, that's because

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California's CPA, previously known as CCPA, um uh has that as one of the

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factors for that law to apply. Um and and maybe we know that question about our client, but but there in lies why we

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shouldn't be just answering stuff for our clients. And I know clients, I know they want they don't want to do it. They

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want us to do everything for them, but when it comes to compliance, they should absolutely have access to their license

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so that we can notify them directly about changes and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And that that way that way they

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get the questions answered correctly. Yes. Yes. Hey, let's see here. Now, how does uh

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termageddon work to handle sector specific needs? Now, this is the thing.

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We've been talking privacy laws here right now, but there's other policies

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that are needed for websites and we're talking sector specific such as e-commerce sites or health blogs or

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they have other disclosures and other policies they have to have on their sites. Like I do have clients that that

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are psychologists and nurses and things like that and they're getting their policies set up and they're a little

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different in how they're handled or um a client that's um an e-commerce site

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which needs return policies and other things. Yeah. Consumer protection laws. So how

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does Termagon help handling things like that? Yeah. So um because our price is $119

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whether you want to comply with law one law or all of the laws. um we don't change it at all. Um we're just this is

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the fee whether you want one thing or everything we've got to offer. Um and that's something I'm a big believer in.

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I don't want to nickel and dime people just to get added protection. Um I I just want you to have it all. Um access

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to all of it. And so when you get into industry specific disclosure requirements, I feel like that's where

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that's beneficial where okay, I'm a psychologist and I want to make a medical disclaimer on my website where

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it's like nothing on my website should be considered medical advice. um for example or health advice. Um that

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happens to be our disclaimer generator. Yeah. And our tool will just straight up ask you um do you provide anything on your website? They could be seen as health

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advice and you would select yes as a psychologist for example. And that generates the medical disclaimer. Um

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same with e-commerce. Um along the path you'll be asked questions regarding uh transactions and if it happens online

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and if you're taking transactions and you're located in an area that has consumer protection laws. We set up all

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the questions necessary to make the disclosures under those respective consumer protection laws. Now, with that

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being said, um and and and I think a really good resource, um is uh we just launched a few weeks ago a new page at

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the top navigation of termageddon.com, which is called a coverage page, and that shows all the laws, rules, and

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regulations we cover. Uh we cover over just over 120. Um just for perspective,

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when looking at our three biggest competitors, it's more that laws than they all cover combined. Um, so, um, I

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think that's the benefit like of an attorney founded solution. Um, uh, we're just firing them off. So, you can use

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that feature to like search by coverage area. You can search by, uh, type of law, various other things. There's like

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a filter at the top box. Um, so we cover a lot of industry specific things, but

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we there are things we don't cover. A very good example is FINRA. FINRA is a financial privacy law that applies to

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like websites that are like issuing loans uh directly through their website without talking to anyone. You know, you apply for a loan or something, we're not

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we're not a good fit for that. Um, HIPPA. So, if a website's collecting protected health information directly on

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the website, so most doctor websites, they have a third-party patient portal for this exact reason to avoid HIPPA as

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it relates to their website. But if you are um if you have a website and you're like, what's your prescription history?

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what's your, you know, um what's your ailments? Um describe your problems and you're collecting that data hopefully

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through a HIPPA compliant server. Um HIPPA would not be something we cover. But when you have those industries that

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we don't cover, you can still customize your policies with Termagdon. Um so you actually get you you get a what you see

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is what you get editor and you can add sections if your attorney wants to add them or not. Um, so typically people

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like dealing with FINRA, uh, HIPPA, they're very well aware of those laws. Um, and they're they typically don't

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want to deal with them. So they don't build a website that deals with has to deal with them. But if you are in those uh situations, you can still use

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termagon. But just my recommendation would be share your license with your attorney so that they can um add in any

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paragraphs if they so add it and modify it as necessary. All right. Well, we got we got a quick

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question here. If you if your company your website focus changes, how do you

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make sure your site still has all the coverage it needs? What do they need to go back and reanswer questions or what?

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Yeah. Yeah. I would say going back and reanswering questions is a smart move. I mean, you're changing your business practices. Um, a good example is what is

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your return policy? Um, maybe you defined it, but now you've switched up your business. If you're changing your

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business operations, we live in a regulated world. you know, in your head, you have to be like, "Oh, I'm changing

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things. I should review my termagdon questionnaire to make sure it accurately reflects my new business." U for what

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it's worth, from what I've seen working with thousands of customers, I would say the biggest quote unquote change I see is going from anformational site to an

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e-commerce website because now all of a sudden you want to add terms and stuff. So, I I would just say the biggest rule

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of thumb, you find yourself collecting new types of data, you find yourself um processing new data um that you weren't

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processing before, that's when the light bulb should go off. Oh, I should, you know, do something about that. Now, with

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that being said, a good example, we have a cookie consent scanner. Let's just say you forget to do that. Um our cookie

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consent will block those technologies from loading until you you add them in. Uh but but but regardless best practice

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as website owners is we need to just understand when we change stuff about our business we need to have that

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reflected on our website policies. Yeah I understand that one. I recently rebuilt a site for a client where they

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went from just mostlyformational to adding e-commerce

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and we used termageddon to help add all those new policies. Cool. It was an affordable one for them

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because they couldn't have possibly have paid to do all had a fair amount for

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them to deal. I'm thinking about that. Let's well that and you mentioned the cookie consent. Now on the cookie

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consent, how does tmageddon deal with the cookie consent? Because well, one, it's not required everywhere, but it

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seems like it's everywhere and it truly is everywhere. And it originally started

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because of the GDPR. They're the ones that uh forced that into the world. Uh

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five six years ago I think they forced it in they mostly held it in Europe but now

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it's spread across the globe. And also it's due to some issues with

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California in particular the SIPA in California. Now that cookie consent is even more

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important. Yes. Big time. I'm happy you brought this up. This is probably the touchiest subject going on right now in our

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industry. Um so let's talk about cookie consents in general. Um, are they a slightly annoying user experience? 100%.

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Uh, I'm not going to deny that fact. Does a properly cookie consent banner respect the rights of your visitors?

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100%. And and and time and time again, I I see us website owners being conflicted because I'm like, do you want to offer

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do you want privacy rights yourself? Yes. It's unanimous. This is a nonpartisan like everyone wants a

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reasonable number. Everyone wants it, but everyone wants to collect data. It's it's it's a conundrum. I want to collect data, but I

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want my privacy rights. It's like, oh, well, you gota you got to come to a center mutual.

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You have to make a decision. Exactly. It's like the same thing when clients would come to us. I want the best website in the world. I I want to

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compete with Amazon and my budget is $400. Like, well, good luck. Like, I wish you the best. You're telling me in

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one breath it's the most important thing ever and then the other breath you've amounted $400 for this investment. Like,

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you you're you're stuck out here. So, so I guess I would just say like a properly built consent tool helps ensure your

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website visitors data isn't just halked off and shared with companies who've built billion billion maybe trillion

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dollar companies at this point. I think some of our even in the trillions. That's so wild to say. Um and so a

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consent tool will ensure that we they take what's called a quote unquote explicit action and consent first prior

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to you taking their data and sharing it with third parties. Now, I will note there is already an asterisk to that

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statement because some US privacy laws like California's CPA um or Virginia's

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VCDPA, there's multiple other states that have this model too, is where you're opted in by default. And only if

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you select deny or opt out, you are opted out. So, not only are cookie consents required, but the framework in

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which it needs to be determined as well. And that is subtle, but it's important. Um and and so there there in lies yet

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again h how I started this presentation which is step one find the laws that apply because only then can you

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determine everything else and that's exactly what term is. We figure out the laws that apply and therefore once our

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tool understands ah California SIPA applies but CPA doesn't Canada's pipeda

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applies and so does Quebec law 25 and GDPR and UK DPA apply. Okay great this

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is the type of cookie consent banner you need for these visitors. So, so our tool helps figure out the frameworks you

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need. Um, now cookie consent banners, I've come to love them because I I understand what they actually do, which

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is respect privacy rights. Um, I think I think as time goes on, more and more people will understand that. Um,

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unfortunately, I think that that timeline's going to be escalated a bit. Um, because um, there is a new string of

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uh, demand letters coming out of California targeting website owners of all shapes and sizes. I have spoken to

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major companies receiving these demand letters. I've spoken to one person retirees with just anformational site um

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getting a demand letter for 25 grand in damages. And I've spoken to nonprofits dealing with this stuff. What is

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happening right now is there is a privacy law that isn't new. In fact, it's the opposite. It was made 30 years

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ago before even Google existed. It was created. It's called the California Invasion of Privacy Act. And it was

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designed to protect Californians from having third-party companies eavesdrop on phone calls. And when you step back,

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that's actually a pretty legit law. Like, I kind of like that. Like, as a Californian, you it's illegal for someone else to be spying on you,

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listening to you on a phone call. I I can get behind that. What is unfortunate is that the way t

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wiretapping was defined, it was defined as a communication. And there's been a new string of attorneys, a growing

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number of attorneys that are applying that to website owners, saying that if you've integrated anything behind the

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scenes that is monitoring me while I visit your website, you are tracking me

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without my consent. Therefore, I'm su I'm I I demand, you know, $50,000 in

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damages for how offended I am or or whatever their claim is of how damaged they are. um websites using Facebook

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pixel, LinkedIn tag, live chat features. Um those seem to be the big ones. Um

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link with Facebook pixel being the big one. They and what I think it is and we saw with accessibility. I think these

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attorneys are just going down the line, finding all these sites that have Facebook pixel, seeing if they have a cookie consent solution or not, and then

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submitting a lawsuit or submitting a demand letter. Um I've spoken to one too many people who come to us after dealing

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with one of these uh things and and then all of a sudden we can now help them. But um but you know, it's much better to

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just get in front of it now because you know, if you ignore the letter, you're going to get served. At least so far. Everyone who told me that they're going

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to ignore it, they ended up getting served and and have to show up in court now in California. Um so anyways, long

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story short, SIPA is a 30-year-old privacy law that's being reinterpreted to apply to website owners, and there

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are a lot of people completely blindsided um after receiving the demand letter and even possibly being served.

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Um they've I've they've settled for thousands to maybe $10,000. Um it's expensive. Um and it could have been

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very avoidable. Just take on privacy. Embrace it is my recommendation. So that's what needs to be done with it.

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And yeah, that one there is a big one. Um so

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as we move through this, we can look at what are some of aside from this one here, the cookie consent laws and

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dealing with the cookie consent. Now on your cookie consents uh solution I saw

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you didn't you said in an interview I saw you somewhere you mentioned that the cookie consent banner has an IP or a geo

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uh uh function a geo targeting function. Tell us a little bit about how that can be useful especially if your website

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happens to appear somewhere where none of this is required and maybe you can save your your visitors some grief

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for sure. So a lot of website owners don't like consent banners. They want to limit the exposure of those banners. And

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because you need to display a certain type of banner based on a user's location, you have to use geoloccation

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for a compliance purpose. So it's perfectly uh it's a perfectly compliant approach to I need to look up your

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location to determine what type of cookie consent you need if at all. Um so one of the features we offer is um the

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feature only display the consent tool to the people that actually need to see it. So like um you know being ter being term

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again, we display the consent to everyone. We want everyone to have that privacy right, but I absolutely understand people wanting to limit it.

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I'm in Chicago. If I wasn't as privacy focused, I'd be like, "Okay, show my consent to people in Cal Canada,

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California, UK, and EU, but don't show it to people in Illinois because they don't have that right, and I don't want them to have to deal with a cookie

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popup." Um, so that's our geoloccation feature, which is only display the consent to the people that actually are

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required to see it. So, that's a useful feature. I thought that one was a good one. Um, it's a good one for sure.

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See here for for agencies doing this um that are reselling termageddon policies,

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how can they use that to add value clients along the way and also help

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themselves out a little bit in the process? Yeah, for sure. So, um that's that's where my heart and soul is agency

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partnerships. And the way it works is we give you a free license for your own website. We do that in the hopes that you're willing to take the time to

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generate comprehensive policies for your own website. Um, only if you like what you see, we ask you consider

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recommending us to your clients. Um, there's no strings attached. Um, you will get a couple emails from us up

352
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:20.079
front, but then we send like two a year after those initial onboarding emails. Um, but but yeah, um, the real the real

353
00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:25.359
benefit I feel like we provide is educational material. We help you educate your clients that let them know,

354
00:36:25.359 --> 00:36:30.720
hey, look, I may have just built a contact form for you. I may have just installed analytics tools for you. These

355
00:36:30.720 --> 00:36:37.680
are features that collect data. data is regulated. You may be required by law to have policies. You can go off and get an

356
00:36:37.680 --> 00:36:43.920
attorney if you want to. You can get set up with termagon like I use on my own site or you can choose to do nothing. And and what I'm leading into there is

357
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:49.680
our website policies waiver. That's just one of many assets we provide for free um to our agency partners, which is how

358
00:36:49.680 --> 00:36:55.520
do I educate my client about the regulated the website I just built them that is subject to regulations. And and

359
00:36:55.520 --> 00:37:02.079
and I share that to say I would try to pretend this stuff doesn't exist for a long time. like I'd copy a policy from

360
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:07.200
somewhere else and just kind of hope for the best. And and the fact is our industry is growing up. It's being

361
00:37:07.200 --> 00:37:12.640
regulated. And I would much rather be upfront and communicate that effectively. Here's what's going on with

362
00:37:12.640 --> 00:37:18.000
regulations, I need you to acknowledge that I told you this. Because by doing that, if a client declines to have

363
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:24.800
policies, declines to have all that stuff, if they end up getting a demand letter for 50 grand in damages and they try to blame you for it, you're going to

364
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:31.119
have a lot of documentation saying, "I kind of told you about this, buddy." Um, and I and I can't express how important that is to get that documentation in

365
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:36.400
place because every website you build today will be facing the privacy laws of tomorrow. So, so get in front of that.

366
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:42.560
Now, I realize I didn't answer your question directly, John. Like, um, how do how do I offer this as a value ad?

367
00:37:42.560 --> 00:37:48.960
Well, I would say that, you know, if I'm a small business owner and I'm trying to decide between agency A and agency B,

368
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:54.800
and agency A is telling me, hey, I understand you want a contact form. I I understand you want a newsletter

369
00:37:54.800 --> 00:38:01.520
subscription. Just so you know, this is data. Data is regulated. So, you may be required to have policies by law. Not to

370
00:38:01.520 --> 00:38:06.720
worry if you don't have an attorney. I have some other solutions that are like affordable for you for that um or or

371
00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:12.480
something. I don't believe in making the sales pitch for a new website to be all about policies. But I do believe one or

372
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:18.800
two sentences talking about it separates you from a company that doesn't care

373
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:24.560
about privacy, that doesn't take this into account and downplays it even maybe. Um because if I if I'm if I'm

374
00:38:24.560 --> 00:38:29.920
talking to an agency that I'm already coming to them because I like the design of their work. If they're giving me

375
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:36.240
insights that go far beyond design and it it demonstrates a full comprehensive understanding of the web design

376
00:38:36.240 --> 00:38:42.800
industry. Um I'm going to go with the person I'm going to it builds trust. I'm going to go with the person I trust the most. So, so I think it's a trust

377
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:48.240
building opportunity um while getting you the documentation you need to protect yourself as you run your own

378
00:38:48.240 --> 00:38:55.839
agency business and launch sites that will be facing the privacy laws of tomorrow. That's important. Now, now with what you

379
00:38:55.839 --> 00:39:02.320
offer, I mean the assets you you give to an agency have been incredible. I mean, initially during onboarding, you guys

380
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:09.680
offer up a course that it can that can be taken that uh gives you a little bit of a certification of acknowledging and

381
00:39:09.680 --> 00:39:14.880
understanding more. That was actually quite useful for me. And the other things you got, you've got

382
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:20.000
two paths on how people can make an income from you. Um, can you talk a

383
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:26.240
little bit about those two? Yeah. So, after you use your free license for your own site, hopefully you

384
00:39:26.240 --> 00:39:32.640
like what you see and you want to recommend us. You get two paths you can go down. And maybe I shouldn't call them

385
00:39:32.640 --> 00:39:38.640
paths because it's you can do one for one client, you can do the other for the other client. I I realize that there there but there are two paths to an

386
00:39:38.640 --> 00:39:43.760
income stream. For sure. Yeah. Uh for sure. And and most most partners go down one

387
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:49.440
exclusively, but but yeah, just want to know both exist. Um but the reseller and affiliate programs, um these are the two

388
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:56.720
programs we offer to our agency partners. Um reseller is where you as a partner can buy licenses one at a time

389
00:39:56.720 --> 00:40:01.760
at wholesale rates. Um, so when you apply as an agency partner, yes, a real

390
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:07.760
human does actually review your application and they really actually do send you a personal welcome email. Um,

391
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:15.200
that's that's very real. It's not AI. We've been doing it since, you know, since we started the company 10 years ago. Um, but but because we approved you

392
00:40:15.200 --> 00:40:21.839
and we vetted your website, we unlock ability to buy licenses at wholesale one at a time. Meaning you you don't need to

393
00:40:21.839 --> 00:40:27.599
buy 20 licenses to start getting a discount. You can buy them one at a time. And by buying them one at a time, you can then resell them to your

394
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:32.960
customers at the full retail price. Um, so there's a good margin in there to make some recurring revenue. Um, I' I

395
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:38.400
feel like it's kind of like adding a 13th month of hosting and maintenance uh to your annual plans. It feels a lot

396
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:44.079
like it's like that kind of price range. It's it's it's adding those extra two months that you give away in the 12-year

397
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:49.760
discount or 12 month. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. So, so yeah, you know, no one's getting rich off term

398
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:54.960
again, but you're protecting your clients and and you are increasing that bottom line, which is always good.

399
00:40:54.960 --> 00:41:01.119
Um, the other program is the affiliate program. So, that's where the client pays. That's where the agency pays nothing. They will never pay us a dime.

400
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:07.760
In fact, we are the ones who pay them. And that's the way the client pays Termagdan directly and then we pay recurring commissions to the agency

401
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:13.599
partner for the lifetime of all referrals. Um and and and I would say that I've noticed I I'll I'll just say

402
00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:19.839
about 5050 um partners do reseller, the other 50 do uh uh affiliate. And that's

403
00:41:19.839 --> 00:41:25.200
just I think more so just how agencies like to run their own business. So I'm a reseller by heart. Like I want to

404
00:41:25.200 --> 00:41:31.200
increase my recurring revenue and stuff. But then there's a lot of agencies that are like I want my client to have the keys to the castle and they control

405
00:41:31.200 --> 00:41:37.119
everything from there on out. Like me that stresses me out. I'm like I don't want the clients having keys to anything because they're going to probably break

406
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:43.599
it. But but um those two M I just wanted to make sure we meet those two mindsets and can you know service both of them.

407
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:51.040
So So we offer both and they're nice and I actually use both myself. Oh, cool. I'm I'm I I I've got the the resellers

408
00:41:51.040 --> 00:41:56.880
that I got for all of my really good clients and the agencies for the ones clients that just want to handle stuff

409
00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:02.480
themselves. It's it's a a split. And also the the

410
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:08.079
the not the um why that word just went out of my head.

411
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:14.319
I just used reseller affiliate affiliate. Thank you. The affiliate jumped out of my head. The affiliate one is also one that I use to promote

412
00:42:14.319 --> 00:42:20.000
through my uh podcast every week. Oh, cool. Cool. Cool. So, at any rate, those are those are all

413
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:26.000
really great. Well, let's uh wander on out of here. We've d we've dived really nice and deeply into all the privacy

414
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:31.280
laws. Let's uh wander out a little bit and talk about from your agency de days

415
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:38.480
of working. What are what is a piece of advice you give free freelancers for scaling team?

416
00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:45.040
Simplify your offering to the world. I understand that freelancers is a time to learn and grow. Um so it is kind of a

417
00:42:45.040 --> 00:42:50.800
balancing act, but find what you love and stick to that. Like life's too short to be, as you can probably tell, I'm a

418
00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:59.119
little bit salty about it, but life's too short to be dealing with someone's email server while all you want to do is design beautiful sites. So, um, so stick

419
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:04.480
to what stick to what you what interests you. Yes, I understand that one really well.

420
00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:11.920
Okay. Now another question here is where do you see the privacy laws going in the

421
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:17.839
next two three four years and how is that going to how's that going to affect

422
00:43:17.839 --> 00:43:24.000
things like WordPress plugin or just website design in general etc because I know it's like you'd mentioned

423
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:29.839
California's introduced a new one. California, they introduce a new law to control

424
00:43:29.839 --> 00:43:36.800
something every 3 months, I think. But 100%. They're keeping us in business. But the problem with California is it

425
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:42.640
starts there and it spreads to the rest of the United States and then spreads to Canada and spreads to the world from

426
00:43:42.640 --> 00:43:49.359
there. The only ones worse in California right now is the EU as far as creating laws like that. I think they're I think

427
00:43:49.359 --> 00:43:54.560
they're competing with each other really. But so where do you sort of because you're

428
00:43:54.560 --> 00:44:01.599
so deep into this and you see all things and then you've got your wife Datada who is even deeper into it than you. So I'm

429
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:08.079
sure you hear about some of the crazy that uh is happening. So where do you see them from your perspective?

430
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:13.760
Yeah. So so I like looking at the past but also thinking about the future. So in the past three years we had 19 new

431
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:19.760
laws go into effect that we had to update our customers on. 19 new privacy laws. That's insane.

432
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:25.040
And and and when I started this company 10 years ago, it was like, okay, GDPR is in two years. Like, let's get prepared

433
00:44:25.040 --> 00:44:30.480
for it. Now, it's like we got one every two months to deal with. Um so, so the

434
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:36.319
writing is on the wall. Privacy is becoming more important, not less important. And there in lies my my pitch

435
00:44:36.319 --> 00:44:41.599
to everyone, which is rather than pretending it doesn't exist and dealing with something down the road, just

436
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:46.880
embrace it. Respect people's privacy. You know, you want privacy yourself, so respect people's privacy and everyone

437
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:53.599
wins. and and so um so I will say privacy is going to become more important not less important. Um a bill

438
00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:59.760
in who would have guessed California um to stop the SIPA lawsuits got denied. So

439
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:05.760
I think SIPA lawsuits will be continuing. I think they're going to be escalating for at least another year. Um

440
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:10.800
at least another year, maybe a year and a half. And um and only then will we decide that is the next bill going to

441
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:17.119
get denied? Um I think and so that's how it relates to Termagdan like yeah we

442
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:23.920
have a laundry list of stuff we're going to be needing to do for our customers. Good nice value ad there. And then from like a personal standpoint like I would

443
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:29.599
say I'm a little bit frightened at the fact that like um chat GPT the AIS of the world like you submit data into

444
00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:35.839
there and you can't get it out. I don't think we've digested that as a civilization yet because like you upload

445
00:45:35.839 --> 00:45:42.079
your name your email your contact information that you can't pull that out and that's against privacy rights. privacy rights. You have to have the

446
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:48.240
legal right to tell a company get rid of my data and they have to. So how do how will that get resolved is something I'm

447
00:45:48.240 --> 00:45:53.359
I'm extremely curious about on a personal level. Yeah. Interesting. Thought about that

448
00:45:53.359 --> 00:46:00.319
but I've cautious in how I've used it. Yeah. You know thinking about the fact that like um a data leak could occur and

449
00:46:00.319 --> 00:46:06.880
then that gets uploaded and now it's part of training models like um your fingerprints your eye identification

450
00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:12.400
like this is all your stuff and we give them up. we give it up freely. That's not going to be good. I would say

451
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:18.480
privacy rights are probably one of the few pillars we have as a human civilization to like privacy is worth

452
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:23.520
fighting for is what I guess I to say. And I always like to end it with I just don't want to see us living out of Black

453
00:46:23.520 --> 00:46:30.000
Mirror episode. So, absolutely. Or well, for me it's uh back

454
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:35.359
to um the Twilight Zone. I'm old enough to remember the Twilight Zone on TV, so

455
00:46:35.359 --> 00:46:41.280
Oh, the Twilight Zone of course. Yes. There were some interesting episodes there. Black Mirror is basically remakes

456
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:46.800
of the Twilight Zone to me. Oh, yeah. It was 100% a derivative. For sure. For sure.

457
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:54.160
All right. Well, let's uh let's take it out on some light notes here. Let's talk a bit about you and your fun. You know, you got you've got your stuff you do to

458
00:46:54.160 --> 00:46:59.440
decompress and whatnot. You have beekeeping hobby, metal detecting, you

459
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:05.599
know, you've got your your your bong, your your shot bong, which of course we'll just leave that one there. We'll

460
00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:11.200
let everyone wonder about that one. I can't believe you're going to do that to your audience. They probably that's

461
00:47:11.200 --> 00:47:17.599
probably the only thing that's held them on to this call. Like, all right, I want to hear about this. Maybe maybe it's a shot pong. Well, and

462
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:24.480
I I just know it was something you invented back when you're in your college days and your college crazy days and uh from what I understand, you went

463
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:29.520
to 200 un or 50 universities and 200 um frat houses.

464
00:47:29.520 --> 00:47:36.160
Yes. Selling it out of the back of my car. All right. What what is what in a in a brief note, what is it exactly? Because

465
00:47:36.160 --> 00:47:41.440
I couldn't actually find it online. I tried. So, yeah, I coincidentally it came up

466
00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:46.480
with some friends a few days ago. I had a hard time finding it, too. It's a device like a beer bong. Imagine a

467
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:52.880
really small beer bong for holding shots and chasers where the shots stay separate. It stays in the bendable tube

468
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:58.400
and the chaser stays in the funnel. So, when you do it, the shot comes first and the chaser comes so quickly after, you

469
00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:03.839
don't taste the shot at all. And I traveled the nation proving it. I'd buy the cheapest vodka in the local

470
00:48:03.839 --> 00:48:09.440
neighborhood and and fill it, you know, fill the chaser with Kool-Aid. And yeah, the number one response was, "This is

471
00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:16.640
dangerous." Right after they do it, they'd look at it and say, "This is dangerous." And and that's actually why I stopped selling it. I I I saw some

472
00:48:16.640 --> 00:48:23.440
YouTube videos of some kids taking it just wasn't for me. I just I couldn't mentally handle. I'm just thinking back to my days when I

473
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:28.640
did things like beer bongs and uh pong uh pong bong uh pong shots and

474
00:48:28.640 --> 00:48:35.280
everything else. I'm thinking adding something like that to the mix would have been really hard. Okay, now we know what it is. Let's let's talk about some

475
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:41.920
fun. Let's you you do beekeeping. Beekeeping is something I'm fascinated with. I've not had the time to make it

476
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:47.599
part of my life yet, but tell us a little bit about how does beekeeping and metal detecting. How do those help you

477
00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:53.520
recharge your batteries from? For sure. I think it takes you away from your computers and your screens, which

478
00:48:53.520 --> 00:48:58.640
is a constant battle for me these days, especially um at least me personally. Um

479
00:48:58.640 --> 00:49:05.200
but uh no beekeeping is wonderful. You know, you um you the best my favorite part is when you have to go to the you

480
00:49:05.200 --> 00:49:10.720
have to go to the USPS. You have uh to pick up your bees. Um so you can order be you order bees online like from a

481
00:49:10.720 --> 00:49:16.160
good breeder. Um local if you can find a good local breeder of course that's a wonderful route to go. But we decided to

482
00:49:16.160 --> 00:49:22.480
order online and uh picking it up from the USPS and all the employees like freaking out about it. That was one of

483
00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:27.680
my favorite moments. Like we we had some good laughs together. Um but but yeah,

484
00:49:27.680 --> 00:49:32.720
for what it's worth, for anyone interested, um it's a great hobby because it's they're bees. They're going

485
00:49:32.720 --> 00:49:38.880
to do their own thing. You know, you kind of got to get them set up and then check on them every now and then to make sure, you know, you learn them through

486
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:44.319
podcasts about their health and everything. Um but it's awesome. You especially if you can set up the hive

487
00:49:44.319 --> 00:49:50.960
where like you can chill outside and watch them from a distance and kind of see them coming in and out of their hive and whatnot. Um it's a great hobby and

488
00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:56.960
it's way less effort than I think a lot of people realize. It is. I also need the space. I'm I'm a

489
00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:03.280
little too close to my neighbors for a for beehive. I think your neighbors might not be too happy to have you load up right next to their

490
00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:10.079
side of the house. Yeah, I think they I think they wouldn't like it. But yeah, other than that, well, it's great. Um I really have

491
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:16.480
nothing else. What I'm going to give you is an opportunity here where you can tell everyone where they can find out about you. And of course, all the links

492
00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:22.559
will be in the show notes for everyone. And uh so fire away. Appreciate it, John. So yeah, you know,

493
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:29.680
if you're building websites for clients, um I would love for you to consider our agency partner program. You get a free license for your own website forever. Um

494
00:50:29.680 --> 00:50:34.960
no questions asked. We hope you love it. Um we hope you like what you see and we hope you consider recommending our tool

495
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:41.280
where you make you can make a little recurring revenue while helping your clients get protected. Um for all website owners listening, I'm sorry we

496
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:49.280
don't offer it to you for free, but that's that's the only way we can make money is if small business owners um think, you know, $119 a year is worth uh

497
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:54.559
keeping auto updating policies going. Um, and yeah, I would love for you to check it out. Um, John sounds like he

498
00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:59.839
has a promo code to share with you. Um, John gets a little kickback. Yep. The way the way Termagan works is we are

499
00:50:59.839 --> 00:51:05.200
paying people like John to give us exposure. I am absolutely not paying Google, who's the reason why we're

500
00:51:05.200 --> 00:51:10.960
dealing with these privacy laws. I'm not going to pay them from Google ads. So, we we pay people like John to share, you

501
00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:17.680
know, education about what's going on. Um, so so um yeah, feel free to use John's promo code for a little discount.

502
00:51:17.680 --> 00:51:24.400
Um, and then in general, um, you know, I know sometimes I wonder if we're conditioned to downplay privacy. Don't

503
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:30.079
don't downplay it too much, everyone. Um, we privacy is an important thing to to care about. Um, your privacy matters.

504
00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:36.640
A very important thing. I recently learned how important it is. And, uh, so yeah, don't downplay it at all, folks.

505
00:51:36.640 --> 00:51:43.200
Especially for your websites. All right, with all of that being said, I'm going to let my girl take us on out of here.

506
00:51:43.200 --> 00:51:52.838
And I greatly appreciate everyone for showing up to the show. It's been a really great show. Thanks a lot for showing up, Hans. I appreciate it.

507
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:58.800
Roll the end credits. Thanks so much, Sean. Reminders for the show. All the show

508
00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:03.920
notes can be found at wp plugins az.com. And while you're there, subscribe to the

509
00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:09.040
newsletter for more useful information delivered directly to your inbox. WP

510
00:52:09.040 --> 00:52:15.680
Plugins A Toz is a show that offers honest and unbiased reviews of plugins created by you, the developers, because

511
00:52:15.680 --> 00:52:22.760
you support the show. Help keep the show honest and unbiased by going to wpplugins.com/donate

512
00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:28.960
and set the donation level that fits your budget. Help us make the show better for you by subscribing and

513
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:36.720
reviewing the show through your favorite podcast app. You can also watch the show live on YouTube at WP Plugins A to Z.

514
00:52:36.720 --> 00:52:43.280
And remember to subscribe and hit the bell to get notifications of all new videos. You can also follow the show on

515
00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:49.599
X at WP Plugins A to Z. John can be reached directly through the website

516
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:56.079
wppproadz.com or email him at john@wpro.ca.

517
00:52:56.079 --> 00:53:01.680
Amber can also be contacted through the website at wproz.com

518
00:53:01.680 --> 00:53:08.559
or email her directly amber@wpro.ca. CA.

519
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:13.720
Thanks for joining us. Have a great day and we'll see you next week.

520
00:53:13.720 --> 00:53:17.500
[Music]