slightly behind the behind the schedule
but hey for the minor amount of viewers
that are there wait we're
live All
right we got a couple of couple of
little bits and pieces and tweaks I'm a
fly by the seat of my pants kind of guy
sometimes especially on all this stuff
Although lately it's gotten
smoother
And let's see what we got
that up Uh oh Did I lose you
Oh yeah No no no I' I've lost your image
in my my thing here It's lost your image
for some
reason Where did the image
go That's not good
That's not good at
all I had your video image playing Now
it's
gone That annoys
me Let's come back If I do that it does
Okay So that's a whole
another whole another thing
here Let's try that and try
that as we try to work out the bugs here
Folks welcome to Nope It's still going
to
vanish Still going to vanish And
actually
Let's try that No And one more
thing Okay All right Well we're going to
have to run with it with the bug in the
system So sorry for this Maybe we'll be
able to tweak it here and there as we go
along through
it With all of
that let's get this show rolling
All
right get it out of the
way All right it is time ladies and
gentlemen It is time for WordPress
plugins A to Zed not Z H Welcome to WP
Plugins A to Zed episode 67 exploring
the WordPress galaxy with Jonathan
Denwood of WP Tonic Coming up next on
WordPress plugins from A to
Zed WordPress the king of content
management systems powering the web with
over 80,000 plugins to choose from How
do you sort the junk from the gems
Welcome to WP Plugins A to Zed where
we've been keeping the pulse of
WordPress alive for over 16 incredible
years Join us every week for an
unrehearsed real talk breakdowns of the
latest and greatest plugins developer
and community member interviews Some
weeks Amber and I team up to dig in
Others I'm flying solo unpacking
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or sharing tips to power up your site No
scripts no fluff just the good stuff
from A to Z So plug in and let's get
rolling
the vast uh oh I had my mic you nope I
some of that got to get cut off anyway
we're heading off into the vast universe
of the WordPress with a true thought
leader who's been navigating its stars
for over a decade Jonathan Jonathan
Denwood the founder of WP P Tonic who
joins us to share his insights on
running Boutique Hosting Company in 2025
the future of WordPress amidst the rise
of AI and the impact of Matt Mullenwag
on the community Plus we'll dive into
the good the bad and the ugly of running
a long-term WordPress podcast Whether
you're a plug-in enthusiast or WordPress
professional this episode is packed with
cosmic wisdom for you won't want to
miss I probably should have practiced
that Welcome to the show Jonathan I
greatly appreciate you here Oh fantastic
John Um the big daddy It's great to be
on your show and to have a chat with you
the big daddy of WordPress
Well you know we've got all kinds of
wonderful things here I thought we'd
start with uh one of course you're
running u WP Tonic which is a boutique
hosting which is pretty much what mine
is at WP Pro A to Zed And uh you know
let's talk a little bit about the
challenges of boutique u I am just
stumbling all over the words uh boutique
hosting if maybe if I slow down that's
what I should do slow down No you never
you never slow down John I also struggle
with my words as well So um well you
know um we are B2 coasting provider like
you said we specialize in membership
learning management systems and
community focused websites
We just try and make it easier
because we provide not only really great
hosting but we go
over and really attempt to help the
people that are hosting with us have a
successful launch with their membership
and community website So we do a bit
more than what most hosting providers
will do Plus we got some additional
services Plus we provide a suite of
tools plugins basically WordPress
technology as part of the hosting
package that we provide the licenses but
we provide the support and we make we've
tested it all and we've made sure that
it works great together Yeah Well I was
looking over all the stuff you had and I
found it uh rather fascinating and
interesting about all the different
components you have and the whole list
of plugins you offer It looks like you
have a bit of a specialty in learning
systems Yeah learning management systems
membership Um I have a kind of
controversial um position when it comes
to membership with WordPress Um I
wouldn't say this is 100% because that
would be ridiculous But I think for the
anybody that's planning to do more than
one course and really attempting to
build a really um a real business in e
education or a real commitment they
really should look at utilizing a
learning management plug-in rather than
a membership plug-in I think there's
certain circumstances M like I say if
you're just doing one course or you're
selling digital physical products
um where membership plugin is okay but I
think in general um you're best to look
at a learning management plugin Yeah
Well which learning management plugin do
you learn I've been studying and trying
to figure out a good learning management
program for the last several months
because I've been considering adding
courses to my stuff but I just haven't
been able to nail them down and test
them Which one is the one that you're
using the most and why
Um well it depends on the type of
um customer or organization that you're
dealing with If you're dealing with uh
the single
entrepreneur that is trying to build a
membership business as a a sideline a
side hustle and hopes to turn that into
a full-time business I think there's
clearly one leader that offers a
tremendous value Um especially the
package that we offer and that's in that
is Lifter LMS Mhm Because because it's
part of our hosting package we offer
their infinity bundle right which is
around
$1,400 and we offer that and it's fully
licensed
Um so but
um I think the truth of it um is there's
three main leaders in the WordPress
space to my opinion That's Lifter LMS
that's Learn Dash and Tutor LMS Mhm Um
and we offer Lifter LMS and and um Learn
Dash Um because we don't offer
everything we have to make a a decision
about they're the three clear clear
leaders and I I think you could choose
either of those three and dependent on
your
particular circumstances and needs Um
but in general all three of those would
be great solutions John Oh excellent
Well I'll dig down deeper into one of
those three then as I'm uh preparing up
this nightmare I'm trying to uh create
Well you need to host reverse don't you
Oh no no no I can do that I already I
already have my own hosting I've got you
know several servers of my own that I
run you know and uh I have you know
couple hundred clients that uh I manage
So yeah it's just kind of hard to jump
hosting when you're already a hosting
provider Obviously I was I was only
teasing I know I know And then I just
went all defensive on it So hey it's all
good Adds to the fun of it So you also
what you should what you should have
said John is oh no I'm I'm gonna look at
GoDaddy Yeah There you go That's I
should have said no look at GoDaddy No
better than that Go to Blue Host Oh yeah
I'm trying to think of some of the
others I ran into over the years No No I
started hosting back in 1999 So when I
had some problems and I went you know
what I need my own
server Started out for myself grew it to
a business So at any rate um now you've
also been
um let's see where did I go here I had I
had questions lined up for you Well
we'll just run it up So what are the
challenges you do face with uh all the
hosting environments and other options
that other people out there have Do you
worry too much about all the competition
or just go well I've got my clients and
I'm good
Well you got to be competitive But if we
couldn't provide you know we do not in
any shape and form pretend that we're
GoDaddy or Blue Host right or um WP
Engine or um Liquid Web We are
bestow hosting company with a particular
specialtity So
um we have a number of clients Some are
small some are medium some are very
large companies Um but they're all
looking for expertise and knowledge in
the e-learning and they like WordPress
because of the ownership and cost
effectiveness of WordPress but it's
really more about owning the
intellectual property and not relying on
a SASbased platform but they also are
looking for a partner and somebody that
clearly shows that they have knowledge
in this particular niche
I think I think the main thing that a
lot of people struggle with us
is they ask for advice but they've
already made their opinion their choice
in their heart And there's so much
um choice in the WordPress space that
you can get a bit
engrossed in the right technology stack
rather than concentrating on how you're
going to market your membership website
right and actually get your what I call
which I've taken from the world of
bootstrap SAS is a minimum viable course
You get a lot of people that approach us
John that think that by building a
enormous course it's actually going to
help them market it and really prove the
value of their experience and knowledge
And it's totally understandable John but
in my opinion it's totally misguided
because really your first course should
be like what I just said a minimum
viable course And then get your first
students in um and learn what they are
really looking for Um there's many
things that I've I presumed that people
in my niche would be really excited
about in our hosting packaging and they
they've shown total indifference and
I've just spent a load of
time finding the right service adding it
white labeling it Um and there was
absolutely no interest So I think a lot
of people do the same They make they
think by build I call it the kind of war
and peace of courses right You know some
mammoth course
with and I really I think and a lot of
people spend spend too much time on the
color of a button and the position of a
of their lesson grid and getting it
pixel perfect right which when you've
proven that your course has got a real
demand for it I think then is the time
to really um delve into those particular
issues So that's the main thing that we
really um struggle um we've got better
at it because you got to be very
diplomatic but right not being
dictatorial but really having clear
pathways and we have a white glove on
boarding
experience where when somebody buys one
of our packages they actually um have a
white balding session with one of my
success experts and we actually find out
what they're trying to achieve John so
so then what you're what you're saying
here also is that you not only will host
them help them get into the system but
you'll help bu help them build out and
get their courses going to begin with
Well we configure everything of the of
the when they tell us what they're
trying to achieve we can then advise
them of what plug-in um stack technology
WordPress technology stack that would
work for them Mhm Um on our very
extensive list we don't install
everything We just have different
options and different depending because
some people want a community focused
website where they're looking to combine
membership with Buddy Boss or Fluent
Community Others are not interested in
community they just want a membership
right So it really depends Some are
looking to do um
serious marketing optimization so we
offer packages in that Others are not at
that stage So it really depends on the
individual's what they're looking for Um
yeah
Excellent So the other one I noticed
here is you you mentioned Buddy Boss I
think I touched on it a few years ago
for a client that has long since moved
on but how do you find it works with uh
integrations and creating a community
using Buddy Boss
It's a great tool for the right person
at the right moment Um um I think it was
the only realistic tool until a year ago
but now you got fluent community Um you
got what community Sorry I didn't catch
that Fluent community Oh fluent
community
Yeah Um I think if you're starting out
on this journey um I think Fluent
Community is a better choice now than
Buddy Boss But if you already got a
community that's growing on let's say
Facebook groups or a Slack channel or
you've built something on mighty
networks
um I think Buddy Boss is a fantastic
platform but building a community is
plus a membership is not a lighthearted
endeavor
Um also it's a very similar situation
John to what I what I said previous is a
lot of people think by offering a mobile
app for Android or or
Apple that will make their community
more appealing Um I totally disagree
with that I think the investment most
want a white labelled app
Um normally if you go to Mighty Networks
that would cost you between 20 to
$30,000
right If you go to Circle it's probably
around 15 to
25,000 They're a little bit cheaper Um
that kind of investment for white
labeled Um if you go to Buddy Boss
they'll be able to do that initially for
a couple of thousand and then it's about
200 a month So it's a much better
investment but I I still wouldn't advise
it for somebody starting because I don't
think it would it will help you help
building the community and building a
successful business at all Actually um I
think people get totally sucked into the
whole business and there's a lot of
influencers online that give very
um misguided advice shall we put it that
way Yeah Well there's a lot of
unfortunate misdeed advice out there and
uh we all do what we can with it
Thinking of misguided advice in the
world let's take a little change Let's
go dive into the future of WordPress and
AI and have you been embracing or using
the AI tools and how have you been using
them Yeah I use a lot of AI John I love
it Um I'm virtual right now John Um
um yeah I I use a lot of AI especially
with SEO I I do um to do my SEO research
There's a number of professional level
tools My main purpose in the company is
marketing and and client our medium to
larger client communication and
management
Um I do spend a fair bit in dealing
directly with smaller clients in the
ticket support system just to keep
my hand in and keep a feeling about
um how things are going in the company
Um but no I use a lot of AI Um how is it
going to affect it is extremely
difficult to determine
um what's going to happen I think
there's in some ways in the kind of
short medium to medium and I what do I
mean by that in two to five years time
um it could be quite radical I say that
but I think on the lower end of the
market people that are really looking
for a
template a starter website whatever the
term is depending on what page builder
you're which is your poison right Or
you're looking for SAS you know you're
look you're that DIY person that's using
Wix Squarespace or you're looking at
WordPress I think they're the main three
things that a small business a DIY
individual that really hasn't got any
budget they're the three platforms they
would look at Um I really apart from
generating the text I think that market
was really um served
by starter websites already right I
think um I think formatting the text and
putting it in makes makes it a little
bit more convenient
But I also think that that type of
customer was well served in a way in the
last four or five years anyway Sean well
you're right there in that the starter
website industry has been around for a
while and been serving up instant click
here templates loaded You got some
temporary content and you tear it all
out and put in your content you're good
to go That's a lot of that aspect the AI
That's not some Well it's something I've
sort of looked at recently Um cuz
Elementor of course is which has been my
builder of choice for the last uh couple
of years and they're expanding it out
One of the things they did just recently
is they put out their
AI I can't remember the name of it but
you put in your basic information and it
spits out a full ready template of pages
with the header the footer your graphics
your a few of your graphics in place
your font color your choice your color
theme and everything else And then you
just import it directly into your
freshly installed Elementor and boom
you're all set You just start filling in
your content
And I used that recently on as an
experiment and it worked surprisingly
well to allow you to move forward at a
bit faster It saved me probably 5 10
hours of initial setup You know all that
setup of choosing the right fonts and
getting everything tweaked all the minor
adjustments because it did it in a very
short order The other thing is you
mentioned you use it for doing your SEO
research and people are using it for
writing their content though you can
pretty much tell what a lot of content
is that was written by AI when it
appears No I disagree with you there
John I I think I think that's a load of
B really all I've been I've been able to
pick it out Maybe it's just the way I It
depends on um the tools you're using and
you know there's a particular individual
that dominates SEO in the WordPress
space and they just they just got a copy
farm and just hired an army
of Indian and all writers army of them
and they just produced some of the worst
content ever read So I think a lot of
people especially if they're they're
content writers and that's how they make
their living get a bit sniffy about it
and for
very
indepth specialized
articles and um white papers Yeah
Um you probably can but that's just my
opinion I I think there's a lot of
people getting very sniffy about it Well
yeah you're probably right there The
other areas that I have found useful is
uh one of my buddies here in town uh he
wrote a program called Descriptor that
uses AI to go into your media library
and for your images that don't have
um titles and descriptions and stuff You
just click a button it creates it based
upon the image and some input you put
into the plugin initially to describe
what your site is going to be all about
And so far I found it to be 90% accurate
where it reads the image and gives you
an excellent description of what the
image is
Yeah I would be very careful using that
funny enough because I um I think Google
I I use a very expensive system that
humanizes because it produces without
this it produces really good content
because I I just I just myself I just
don't ask it to write it I give it a I
do the research and I give it um an
outline and I give it custom prompts and
then it churns it out and then I edit it
all um and it's filled with it's filled
with mistakes Well um it you know
because a lot of the content it's basing
the article on is out of date So you do
have to check it and edit it and um
customize it Um and then after that
process it's reasonably pretty good
actually But you got to be very careful
about the tags the meta description the
titles the um image descriptions because
if Google senses that you're using I
AI which is hilarious in a way because
they were one of the main developers of
AI
um that they will penalize you quite
heavily John Oh really Okay wasn't fully
aware of that But at at any rate when
they when it does kick out these
descriptions you do get a chance you do
get an opportunity to rewrite them and
bring them you know more humanized The
biggest thing it does that saves you the
initial time of trying to figure out a
way to describe it Yeah No it's not I'd
never I myself would never turn it on
and say "Yep go ahead and put them all
in there and not let me change them."
Because it's never going to do that I
don't think AI will ever be able to
quite do that Well when it can I think
we'll have other things to worry about
won't we Uh we'll have to worry about uh
AI taking over the world and deciding
that humans are no longer of value to
the planet That's our big problem No
they love us They find us very
interesting pets John Well you know
they'll they'll put they'll put us in
the matrix and run us in their big giant
battery to supply them with energy Be
much more hum We're not very humane as a
species anyway John You know I think
this is pure projection Actually I think
the AI gods are going to be much more um
humane and affectionate and they just
treat us as deluded little pets
basically There you go It'll be we'll be
their little pets and they'll use us as
they need us to do No they just have
better morals than us really in general
All right Well let's wand let's wander
off Now you made mention in the things
it's talking about Matt Mullen wagon
what he's done in the last well give it
seven months now when he started his
battle with uh WP
Engine and what that's done to the
community I've actually from my
viewpoint I've seen some tremendous
improvements in the
community the community as a whole not
just not the stuff all wrapped around
the WordPress drama but the community as
a whole I thought I've seen seen some
really serious improvements and more
people coming out and talking again that
had seemed to have gotten lost That's
what I've seen from it And you
I mean what do you mean by that John
What can you give a specific Well yeah
Maybe it's just me becoming more
involved in WordPress again but I
noticed
people being a little more helping and
promoting other businesses versus I got
mine I want to keep mine you know versus
that squirreling effect in the very
beginning of WordPress Like I haven't
been here since the very very beginning
but I've been with WordPress since
version 2.5
And in the beginning there was that
feeling of helping someone you know
pushing like um I was part of the first
word camps here in Victoria back in the
day when we had word camps You know they
were the fir the word camp in Victoria
was one of the first ones on the west
coast of uh North America And there were
more people trying to help and promote
It's like promoting other people's
businesses pushing other people's
business forward not so much worrying
about theirs knowing well you help
others you're going to get helped along
the way It's just the way it works But
I've seen more of that optimism and I've
seen other things like he's on the
listening on the show right now
influence WP creating the influence WP
community to change the way
professionals can promote their stuff um
versus like I've been turfed from a
couple of uh forums for making the the
big mistake of putting my own URL to a
article I wrote to solve a problem You
ter you terrible person Yes it was a
very terrible you how could you do that
John I know See that's the thing is that
started getting really bad and it gave
me a bad taste for a while Was part of
the reason why I sort of faded away You
mean Otto didn't like you Here we go
Well I don't worry too much You know I'm
60 years old now I don't got to worry if
people like me anymore I'm an old man
All right there we go You seem quite
sharp to me John Um I think it's I like
all things WordPress John I think it's
very contradictory the situation I think
um because of the growth of page
builders eleator initially but now with
my choice which is cadence WP
um or bricks or um there's a number of
them um that's brought in a a whole new
crowd
into WordPress
um younger people Um I think also a lot
of people got disillusioned with the
community and felt that they were being
abused and they um they their work was
you was being utilized as a free
resource Mhm
Um and people just got burnt out and fed
up with it and they found other things
to do or whatever And that's been a a
constant story from the beginning of
WordPress but it's not unique to um to
WordPress These um factors have been
present in almost any opensource project
But that's the other point What is
WordPress opensource project Um I I I
woke up about seven years ago that it
was a hybrid It wasn't really opensource
project It was open source whenever Matt
Manweg wanted it to be open source when
it when it suited his needs and his
investors needs When it comes to the
actual dotted line yes it's open source
code and that cannot be changed
but um utilizing
copyright
and using various business structures He
personally
designed a complex web of different
connected nonprofit and commercial
companies that were designed to hide the
reality of the situation from the bulk
of people that are involved in WordPress
and to uh enable him to have kind of
commercial control over opensource
project Mhm And
um what
I in
public when he made this statement that
he was a benign dictator I publicly
published a blog that
criticized
his statement and his attitude and I I
paid a high price for that blog because
I became slightly untouchable and
certain sponsors wouldn't sponsor my
podcast and whatever
Um so it's it's been an ongoing
contradiction and
um when he entangled himself with and in
some ways did the impossible you know
make people feel sorry for you know the
founder of WP Engine um Jason
um we're not a close personal friend but
I think we are pretty friendly and he
would take my emails and phone calls He
left WP Engine a long while ago I I I
think he might still have some equity in
the business I don't know But um this
business is open owned by a publicly
well a
VC
Um Matt has managed the impossible He's
managed a lot a lot of people to feel
sorry for a VC managed company It's
quite amazing Um but what it's also
opened is the
elaborate inagment of the foundation
which is a should be a nonprofit and in
my opinion was set up illegally Mhm Um
and he he I'm not a legal expert but I
have a couple of friends that are have
been or are corporate lawyers And if he
doesn't settle this
matter with WP Engine and it gets into
the the public discovery process I think
the way that he set up the foundation
which in my opinion is
illegal Um he's going to get into a lot
of hot water
Yeah highly possible Uh by the way we
lost your video
So something happened to your Pro webcam
app
Oh right I've lost lost video All right
It's quite all right man And it's easily
it was easily managed But you you may be
right there I haven't dug down as deep
as you've just uh uh talked about I've
only stayed on the periphery of it and
half paid attention to little bits and
pieces The little bits and pieces I have
seen have been like "Yeah okay This
doesn't seem right." Right It's like the
the stunner to me was when he yanked
people from the wp.org site which I had
always thought was owned and controlled
by the uh charitable organization And it
turned out no it was his own private
website That was the only that was the
big stunner to me
So well um I think I think yeah I think
that's when people
realized
how screwed up Fins were how the reality
didn't really match with the propaganda
that him and the people that work for
him in Automatic how utterly screwed up
everything was Mhm
Um and it is a total um mess of what
automatic owns and good luck to them You
know I would have thought having
WordPress.com and having the founder of
WordPress and also owning Woo Commerce
would be enough for you to be clearly a
leader that you wouldn't need to utilize
these other methods of
intimidation
and dicey setups or foundations
In my opinion um I would have thought
those three things most of the
competitors would literally cut their
wrists to to get hold of but certainly
this isn't this isn't enough Yeah Um um
you know um and being that you got those
free things and you've also through
three numerous rounds of private
investment actually got almost slightly
below a billion dollars of investment M
um I would have thought these factors
would have encouraged you to be a
leading contributor to the opensource
project because you um I think I think
one of the drivers is that automatic
itself hasn't been run very well as a
commercial company
um that these
clear factors that would mean that most
companies under reasonable management
would have a
clear they would be the leader you
really wouldn't look at WP Engine or
some of the other you know they would
still be there but you would have a
sizable amount of the hosting because
you got these clear leading factors
right Um he's because of the in
inability to run automatic in
a in a way that I think you should you
know um I think it's been one of the
factors that led to all this John But
who do I know I might be wrong Well you
know it all it all comes down to in the
end it always uh any organization and
company always comes down to its
leadership and what the leadership is
doing for it is what's going to happen
Well I want to make it clear I've never
gone on Twitter I won't call it X I
refuse to call it X I never will call it
X So um it's Twitter
Um I've never gone on Twitter
and personally attacked Matt Um I don't
believe in it I don't like this aspect
of the WordPress community Um I don't
like um I do it a little I I use the
hashtag drama WordPress drama and that
because I do a a monthly roundt show and
for for legitimacy
um for intellectual legitimacy I
probably will cover certain stories that
other podcasts won't cover Mhm
Um and I've got
um because I like a good discussion
basically Um but I've had to pay a price
for that Um welcome to it But but you
know I'm a big guy and I've been around
a while so I'm prepared to pay the price
So um well on that note there let's uh
segue into the last component here
talking about uh running a long-term
podcast in the WordPress professional
space because your show is almost as old
as mine you know because my show my show
has been running now for 16 years since
2011 or no 2000 late 2010 I I I know the
age of it but my youngest son was born
when I started this show and he's
turning 16
Yeah Um
Well it's interesting I'm always
surprised by the quality of guests that
I manage to get on the show I I've had
some of the biggest people in tech you
know Matt Mweg um Jason um and I've made
some good friends through it Um I've
also um I've also lost friends I've lost
people that have been on the panel for a
long period And there a couple years ago
I had the WordPress mob after me the uh
the righteous keyboard warriors of
WordPress Mhm Um accusing me of all
sorts of things Um and a couple of the
paninists just dropped me and other a
couple other people but also quite a few
people were very supportive So it's a
mixed bag
Um I got into it by accident Um I had a
co co-host that said "Why don't you do
podcasting I'm really into it myself."
And he was my co-host for almost a year
Um he's long gone We don't really talk
to one another now
Um but I got into accident Um really I
do two podcasts I do the WP Tonic that's
really aimed at the professional market
and really I get a few people host for
me that are freelancers power users but
my main business is on the DIY and the
power user and I've got another podcast
called the membership machine show which
is really aimed at my target audience
Right I keep the pod the WP Tonic going
because
um because building relationships and I
get a little bit of sponsorship and that
covers the cost of it that also helps me
cover the costs of the other podcasts
But I I like to keep it independent
because
um yeah you know but it's been
interesting is bit because I tend to
think who who
cares what we say on especially the
round table show John I tend I tend to
think who the hell cares it's only a
small podcast with a very niche audience
right but I'm amazed how its ability to
rub people up the wrong way well yeah it
can't they can do that then you you'd be
surprised like when I've brought myself
back in And I've started interviewing
people I've started running into people
that were listening to my show back in
the day And they were telling me how
much they enjoyed it and how much it
really helped them out in the beginning
And so that's why I'm trying to bring
this show back to what its roots were
Over the years I've had I've got I've
had two guest hosts One is currently
still It's like this is my every other
week I do interview shows And then on
the opposite week like next Monday I do
our regular podcast show and my co-host
is my daughter who's on who's on the
show with me and we bring of course you
know plugins news information talk about
the things of the day the important the
other important stuff These interviews
I'm hoping to get these interviews so
that we can bring more perspectives and
I can talk to more of the movers and the
shakers and the people who don't get
heard from in the WordPress community
That's one of my biggest things is
chasing people that don't get heard from
Yeah I just want to finish off that I'm
still very supportive of WordPress Oh
yeah And I want I want the best for Matt
Um I think it is not good for WordPress
if automatic isn't in a good place No
And I want them to have success on
WordPress.com
I I want them to be able to build the
best alternative to Shopify using Woo
Commerce but have it linked to
opensource system that if somebody
outgrows the um hosted platform they've
got a clear way of of more customization
Yeah Um um I want automatic to be hugely
successful but um I could not
defend this hush this very ugly and ill
advised setup of what the foundation
owns and controls and who actually
controls the foundation and what
automatic owns And
until some common sense prevails and
it's clearly cleared out that the
governance of the foundation is up to
the standard that legally and morally a
foundation should be
managed in my opinion I've got to keep
saying my opinion Sorry John That's
quite all right It's all it's all my
everything that comes out of my mouth is
my opinion my it's definitely my opinion
John Um until this is really clarified
um Automatic and Matt
and Otto whoever they can do all the
PR PR they like but until they really
clear the situation So it's
totally up to the standards that I would
expect I think they're going to have a
continuing problem John Yeah Well they
quite very well could for for some time
I'm hoping that it gets uh squared up in
a decent way I'm definitely still a
supporter of WordPress There's so much
that can be done with it You know
carrying back to our talk on AI one of
the things that I've been doing with it
is using it to help me write plugins
Yeah You know it's like there's a lot of
good tools and advantages out there and
being able to do it in an opensource
environment where it's like okay well
I've got the base software now It's like
I need a solution Well there's okay we
got this solution here Well they want
too much for it but you know I could
build that They can build it themselves
for a solution you know or expand it or
take it in a direction that nobody even
thought of yet
So um yeah but it's a very diverse you
know you got we are in a bubble here
John our viewership are very specialized
well group of individuals the general
end user WordPress even though that I
would classify as a a lower power user
they
really they wouldn't even know what we
were talking about and they don't care
about what we're talking about because
all they're interested is having a
website that generates some leads and
some money for their business But most
of those have themselves a developer or
someone that does the tech work that
does interact with someone at our level
to get ideas and information to move
along So there there's the whole
ecosystem from the company that just you
know I I don't care how you get it done
just get it done you know to the
hardcore person who writes every every
line of code from scratch and then
everything in between Yeah So and that's
what WordPress offers It offers
everything from one end of the spectrum
to the other and the Kurl over the last
6 months has put a lot of a lot of it in
jeopardy Though I don't think it's a
thing well they it's put it's put it in
jeopardy but I don't think it is the end
of the world and I think it's going to
settle out and smooth over time and
it'll change The whole structure is
already starting to change and it will
change it We just don't know what the
end is going to be yet because there's
still a lot of unfinished things So
anyway go ahead Yeah you're probably
right But I think this is only my
opinion John and I've I've said it
before I
think I think what
led to the kind of blowout and his
decision at Word Camp US
to public go public with his problems
with WP Engine I actually think another
factor was playing and that factor
is the way that Gutenberg was going Mhm
that um is the one of you know um a
project you know obviously refactoring
code on a platform that's running 40 to
45% of all websites
is an enormous
technical thing to attempt
um and so I don't want to be too
critical but I I think the way the
project had had been managed especially
when it got into the fourth year and the
way it it they they there really didn't
seem to be any it's got better funny
enough
until obviously it's been put on the bit
of the back burner to some extent right
Um but it was a project that was causing
a lot of upset and a lot of especially
plugins you know
Um yeah I I think this how it was
managed and how it was going kind of
kind of started a bad
taste in the developer community that um
is that is there but I might be totally
wrong there John No it that's bad taste
in my mouth for a while Um I still don't
use it unless I'm absolutely forced to
but it's there's so many other options
that have been moved forward because of
that choice
Yeah So and that's that's where that's
where we ended up At any rate I think
we'll wrap it up here Jonathan And uh
this will be a spot where you know you
get an opportunity to share where people
can find out more about you your
business and all the other good things
that happen
That's well go to the
wpentonic.com website We've got a
special page where we've got some great
special offers from our sponsors and a
list of created plugins that we you
utilize So we we tell you what their
good and bad points are and a number of
surfaces that would interest the power
user and the WordPress professional You
can get all this by going over to
wpentonic.com/dealss
wpentonic.com/dealss And you'll find all
the goodies there Excellent All right
Well what we're going to do here we're
going to play a little music to car or a
little exit to carry us on out Don't run
away on me yet
Reminders for the show All show notes
can be found at wpplugins.com
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a toz John can also be reached at his
website
johnoverall.com or email him directly
john at
wpro.ca Thanks for joining us and have a
great
day Thanks for listening to the show
This show is copyright by
johnoverall.com So until next time have
yourselves a good morning good afternoon
or good evening wherever you happen to
be out there on the globe today
I love that little bit at the end Yeah
that's fantastic You know what's funny
about that Everyone's heard the story
multiple times but I still never tire of
telling it Um I got that just before I
created my first show My son who's
turning 18 in a couple of weeks He was
just over two almost three And I was
testing all my equipment And I just set
it up I'd hit play or hit record on my
computer to record some testing on my
microphone He came over grabbed the
microphone did that and then walked away
Yeah Natural broadcaster John Yeah
Well and so I've I've immortalized him
with my show with I've immortalized his
his three-year-old self There we go A
natural So yeah At any rate we're still
live um out there that this is just a
little post stream Um everything in
between the intro and extro is the part
that goes out on my regular podcast
um the download Good job you said that
John because I was just about to swear
Yeah not that I worry too much about it
I I haven't monetized anything There was
once a point you mentioned talking about
getting sponsored for the show I tried
that once with my show and the headaches
the sponsors gave me I just went you
know what I'll just suck it up and take
the hit on it and use it for other other
use my show for other things besides
trying to make money I've not tried to
make money on the show I've never tried
to monetize my YouTube channel Nothing
Oh well I'm more I'm a more commercial
But what I do John is um I offer good
like one episode but I try and look for
annual sponsors and I do them a good
deal and they pay upfront
So they not so um Yeah But because
otherwise yeah you get exactly what you
outlined Well it it wasn't so much my
content It was like some of them had
demands that Yes I didn't want
to acquies to I just went "No that that
goes against who I am I'm sorry I can't
do that." Yeah Yeah You you I'm not
You're going to You want me to be a
total digital [ __ ] you're going to have
to pay me a lot more money Well that's
pretty much exactly the idea is you have
to pay me a whole lot more money to do
that But no I I just went "Yeah no I'll
do it my way and we'll see what can
happens." I don't know if you've ever
listened to my show before My other
co-host was Marcus Couch He's out there
still doing podcast What What happened
to him I haven't heard from him in a few
years Last time I heard he was doing
podcasts on um uh basketball game
podcasts Oh So I know he's still around
Every once in a while his name pops up
and I I hear something about him but I
haven't heard from him in quite some
time Don't know where he's at in the
world now but he was loads of fun He
help He helped me elevate the show to to
a different level from where I was at
the beginning All right that's good Yeah
Well I
I I don't say sorry to disappoint you
John I don't listen to it every week but
I do still listen to your show and it's
one of the shows that got me into
WordPress so you've always got a special
place in my heart John Excellent Well
glad to hear that Yeah I I listen to
your show from time to time I try to
listen to people's shows but I have so
many different things to listen to It's
like it's I don't get it upset that you
don't listen to me John If if I was you
if I was you I wouldn't listen to me No
I I do like the round table from time to
time The the guests sometimes I see your
list of guests when you put it up on the
on Twitters and uh I go "Oh that one
looks like it's worth listening to." The
other thing is is the biggest time I
listen to the shows is I work I do all
my work in the morning and if I happen
to catch somebody's like doing a show
it's like oh good I got something to
listen to and then I'll remember to
listen to it while I work
Yeah But um I think we all want the best
for WordPress but Matt Matt has not done
himself any favors has he
No unfortunately not He's not done
himself any favors with all with the uh
actions over the last six seven months
These are these are worse than the
actions having been around as long as
I've been I've seen the actions where he
took on thesis and I can't remember the
others You know it's like I saw those
It's like really And those ones there
faded away because they they didn't go
anywhere This time he picked a fight
with a big gorilla
that's got endless money Endless money
for lawyers That's what happened He
picked a fight with a big gorilla this
time instead of somebody else the all
the other fights he picked with were
people that didn't didn't have the
ability to really fight back Yeah Which
I don't that's always been a problem for
me with him But
well a couple of the people he went
after were jerks themselves so that
might be a factor as well That that that
happens too But they're still you know
whatever Anyway I'm going to wrap that
and we'll call it that for the end of
the stream to YouTube And uh don't run
away on me here All right Goodbye
YouTube And make sure you listen to it
folks