start it up We have a little bit of pre
preamble stuff and then I'll hit the uh
intros and then we will roll right
along Sounds great All
right let's get this
going Ladies and gentlemen it is time
for WordPress plugins A to Zed not Z
Well good morning And it is the
interview show today for WP plugins A to
Zed And we'll be discussing the advanced
access manager plugin with Vassel Martin
All coming up next on WordPress plugins
from A to
Zed WordPress It's the most popular
content management and website solution
on the internet That was the wrong one
Actually we're going to roll this right
back and do the jingle all over again
because I got a messed up
opening This is what happens sometimes
Well what happens is I I the live stream
is live That's period But the part that
goes out to the podcast is is recorded
and I try to keep the opening clean for
that one
All right let's roll this back again One
more time Take two Take two
Ladies and gentlemen it is time for
WordPress plugins A to Zed not
Z It is interview number 66 with Vasel
Martin Martin Oh jeez Did I get your
name okay Yeah Yeah it's actually
perfect Oh Martin Okay then I'm gonna
roll that back one more time since I
throw it all off Let's get this right
Okay one more time for all the listener
that's out there Ladies and gentlemen it
is time for WordPress plugins A One more
time Ladies and gentlemen it is time for
WordPress plugins A to Zed not Z It is
interview 66 with Vasil Martin from
Advanced Access Manager We'll be
discussing this plugin and more All
coming up next on WordPress plugins from
A to
Zed WordPress the king of content
management systems powering the web with
over 80,000 plugins to choose from How
do you sort the junk from the gems
welcome to WP Plugins A to Zed where
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rolling
Good morning good afternoon or good
evening wherever you happen to be hiding
out there on the globe today Coming to
you direct from the brewery overlook in
beautiful southern Vancouver Island I'm
John Overall and joining me today is
Vassel Martin from Advanced Access
Manager where we'll be discussing this
plugin that's installed on over 150,000
websites A very fantastic plugin I don't
know why I didn't discover it sooner
myself I started playing with it uh
after he reached out to me and I'm
really enjoying the free version of the
plugin So welcome to the show Basil
Greatly to have you here Thank you I'm
I'm happy to be here Well we've got a
lot to uh cover and go over here on the
plugin You were giving me some nice
feedback information that was going to
be useful for me to wander through and
talk about on all the different stuff
we've got going here And um first off
for start off tell us a little bit I
know your story's been told many times
but tell us a little bit about yourself
and how you got started in in this I see
Well um I'm originally from Ukraine and
I came to United States back in 2011 Uh
I won green card in a lottery so it was
a free pass for me and uh my first job
was in a marketing agency um it happened
to be the their their WordPress shop
primarily So that's how I started to to
to learn WordPress and just out of
curiosity uh created a plug-in over the
weekend called advanced access manager I
even didn't think much how to name it
just first thing that came into my mind
I name it and um and then just uh submit
it for review to the WordPress.org
repository and that's how the journey
started uh one way or another this
plug-in was keeping was keeping me
connected to WordPress uh community to
to WordPress in general and it's been
already 14 years journey
Well it's an excellent plugin Now tell
me a little bit
about what drew you to create a plugin
that protects the integrity of WordPress
So well I mean it goes into places I
wasn't even fully aware existed
Yeah Uh it's a it's a very good question
and the answer can be very long so I'll
try to be That's okay We've got lots of
time All right All right So again it
just started out of curiosity you know
Um at the time when I worked in uh in
the marketing agency back in 2011
um there was a particular need for a um
granular access controls to admin menu
as well as ability to manage roles and
capabilities So there were solutions
available in a wordpress.org repository
that I could just download and install
Uh however uh a client at the time was
very particular about number of plugins
So I was like "All right you know what
let's just create over the weekend." And
um and I just combined these two ideas
ability to manage admin menu and manage
roles and capabilities into one plug-in
very lightweight nothing crazy And um
and when I launched it in a
WordPress.org repository immediately
start getting feedback from users They
wanted additional features They wanted
additional
flexibility And you know from that point
on it just became a community plug-in So
all the ideas that 100% of the ideas
that uh that are implemented in the
plug-in coming from end users and um um
naturally I started to work with with a
lot of developers
um agencies enterprises and learning
their hurdles learn learning their needs
and all that was distilled into the set
of features and functionality that is
available and and uh and advanced access
manager Um so all after all it's a 14
years of all experience around access
controls
um are compiled into this one simple
cohesive plugin
Yeah Okay then Well my brain has just
gone sideways on
me I know what it was You were you had
made mention in your email about talking
about some of the difficulties or horror
stories that emphasize the importance of
the this uh plugin and
how it can help save people well from
what you mentioned a whole lot of money
That's right you know John to answer to
answer that or elaborate more on that um
I'll give a bit of
a background so when we talk about
security I think there is a there is a
very narrow um story about what is what
means security for WordPress when we
hear about security we hear about things
like you know brute force attacks or
vulnerable plugins outdated plugins u
talking about a ws two factor
authentications These are just a part of
the security The whole security starts
from the building where the uh hosting
hardware is and it ends with the very
last user that visited website and
everything in
between So when we hear stories about
WordPress security we hear only about
part of it right
um and you know for years I couldn't
really um clearly articulate what
advanced access manager is what is what
is this for I was telling one some
people that it's membership plugin and
other people that it's a developer SDK
some other people that is somewhat
security plugin but visiting uh uh word
camp last year I clearly realized that
there is a huge gap in the security
awareness that nobody really talks about
and this is a gap in access controls Mhm
If you look at the OASP top 10 OASP top
10 it's a it's a list that a lot of
security organizations are paying
attention uh closely that shows top 10
um top 10 things that create incidents
security incidents and broken access
controls is actually number one issue
apparently Yes apparently Um and how do
they distill that list it's they it's a
nonprofit organization that analyzes
hundreds of thousands of security
breaches um every year and they distill
this top 10
list Uh so uh based on what they
discovering uh through all this analysis
that 94% of all web applications are uh
have some level of broken access
controls which
means which
means something is misconfigured Some
people have high privilege and then they
should some information is disclosed
that should not be disclosed You know I
can even uh mention some things that
even on a on a a
to website on your website or I'm
certain there is already uh I haven't
applied your plugin to that site yet
that site's going undergoing an overhaul
You know uh taking that a little further
is like one of the things you gave me in
your in the information you sent me in
the email you sent me to a couple of
videos to go watch and one of them you
showcase how an editor privilege user
could use that to get someone else to
look at their post and upgrade
themselves And I thought that was very
fascinating I didn't even know that was
a possibility
Yes Yeah And all that it's not really
even an editor but rather the capability
that editor has and that is unfiltered
HTML You know if you look at a WordPress
core um there are two very very unique
capabilities It's unfiltered HTML and
unfiltered uploads they they these two
capability allow to inject pretty much
anything in the in WordPress website
Somehow unfiltered uploads by default is
disabled but unfiltered HTML is enabled
which means allows users like editors or
you can assign that capability to
subscriber right yeah it's with amount
of plugins today available to manipulate
with roles and capabilities it can be
assigned and I've seen and I've seen
websites where this capability was
assigned to editors editors to
subscribers to authors to custom roles
um I even done an analysis
um on the top thousand most popular
plugins in repository in WordPress.org
repository Uh over 10% of the plugins
are relying on unfiltered HTML
capability to grant additional
functionality which means this is rel
this is a relatively popular um
capability that is also extremely
dangerous because anyone who has it can
inject malicious code in the post page
and trick You don't have to even trick
administrator You just sit and wait Yeah
You put it on a homepage Yeah And wait
till the administrator comes in and just
accesses it That's it That's enough
That's enough Yeah Well that was what I
I found quite interesting And as I was
digging down I didn't have a lot of time
to dig into it I had other things
happening but I intend to dig down
further into it And I also noticed when
I was looking up all the info about your
plug-in you have your premium versions
which offer up the ability to lock the
website down even further into a private
website andor by IP address or geoloc So
can you tell us a little more about how
that works and what that does for us yep
Um so when people ask me what is a
premium premium add-on is for I
typically say it is ability to manage
access to your website at scale Uh the
free version includes pretty much
everything which you need If you're a
small site you have small amount of
people you don't even need to go in and
uh and bother buying a premium But if
you have a larger number of content
larger number of users that are visiting
your website it is much easier and much
more efficient to to to buy a premium
because you can manage access at scale
You can basically
um do a reverse access control saying I
want to deny everything but allow only
explicit explicit few pages or I want to
hide all the content for the countries
like
um like US but only show that content to
to people that coming from a country
like France So um this is the premium is
essentially again just designed to to
manage access to your website to website
resources at
scale and it's relatively uh inexpensive
for the amount Yeah you got it priced
reasonably for for those that would need
it It's priced in a reasonable level
I've always judged
plugins based upon whether the price was
reasonable over a period of time for
what it's going to provide for the site
And I've seen a lot of them be
overpriced over the years Seen them come
and go And the overpriced ones often
either don't move very fast or hardly
get enough clients or they have to come
down in price So another question on
this is like how would
this access management control plugin
um work to help you out if you're
running an e-commerce site where you
have lots of people's you know signing
up so they can see their different
accounts or
um just even a basic membership site And
of course we have there's dozens of
membership plugins out there And there's
even ways like I even noticed on mine
today like I didn't even I I even forgot
like when people book on my site it
creates them a a booking level user on
my site and I have no idea I have no
idea what permissions are even applied
to that yet I have to now dig down deep
into it and I didn't even realize it So
there's lots of ways you add things to
your site and you create a new type of
user and unless you look to see what the
plug-in author chose for those you don't
know what they get Is is that what I'm
I'm understanding It's like as the
plug-in author creates and sets this up
he chooses what levels you of
permissions they give that user That's
right And you know just um continuing on
on that like even even your website uh
if I log in as a the booking user or
wherever I subscriber uh I can see the
broken links not notifier on my
dashboard A broken link notifier Yeah
it's a menu in admin that is added and I
know that you have 220 broken links
which actually grew by 50 the last time
I logged in
Sounds like my site right now You know
as they say the plumber's pipes always
leak The uh mechanic's car needs brakes
Yeah But that's that is um so this this
is a segue to
um uh to the topic of the recycled
capabilities I find it one of the
biggest problems in a WordPress
ecosystem today So what is recycled
capability as as you mentioned as
developers they're choosing specific
capability to um to code their
functionality for the plug-in saying if
if user had that capability then they
can do this additional things right and
um
and I've seen it and I continuously see
that developer no matter what level it
is from the associate to the principal
engineers they don't really put too much
thinking into which capability to assign
so a lot of times I've se even seen a
e-commerce solutions with a admin
privilege capabilities that is granted
uh with edit posts Wow or yeah if if so
from developer standpoint they think
like okay if if uh if user has the
ability to edit posts they should be
able to manage all the products they
should be able to see all the all the
users in their mind it's all right but
in a grand schema it's not because
websites um you know there are different
level of users there are different
responsibilities that that users have so
they don't really think through all
these details
And it happens over and over again
Recycle capabilities it's a huge problem
Um so how am
uh to mitigate these problems again you
can enable restricted modes Essentially
what what you do is saying all right if
it's a admin area I want to restrict
everything but only explicitly allow
specific admin pages And that can be
easily toggled with just a just
literally a button You click it Now no
matter even if you even if you're
administrator you will be able to see
only pages that you explicitly allow to
see for that user Um for e-commerce
solution considering how large this uh
this space is how many add-ons available
uh restricted modes is must-h have uh
solution because again it's it's just a
piece of mind right you don't leak
unnecessary information to to your users
you don't give them ability to perform
action that they should not right take
just peace of mind as simple as that
well yeah absolutely Absolutely
And in today's world with all of the
additional tax on the site you want to
have as much peace of mind as you can
Now I do have an interesting question
that just popped in me with the advanced
access manager
plugin How is there is is there a
prevention in place for the
administrator setting this all up to
prevent from locking themselves out of
the system while they're setting it up
happens all the time Oh okay And then
what happens then do they have to reset
the database or how do they how do they
get back into it just turn the plugin
off What what fixes it yeah Um so if
they messing with the roles and
capabilities which is there's a big
banner says be careful right ros and
capabilities If you're messing with that
they are directly go into into the
database and you directly modifying the
database WordPress core right um uh
property If but however if if they um
messing up with other properties they
can easily go to database and clear all
the options that uh prefix with AM or
they can just disable plugin and uh they
going back So advanced access manager u
does not modify uh database It does not
modify any files on a on a website You
can you can deactivate it and it will
clear it by automatically Okay It will
delete everything Yeah Okay So so then
if you did lock yourself out you go into
the back end change the name of the
plugin it deactivates and then they then
they've got access back in there again
Okay Excellent And then if they
reactivated it would they be locked out
again just out of curiosity would it
would it remember some of that stuff
well yeah if they just rename the the
the plugin um plugin folder then you
know settings are persisted in that
basis Okay So the settings are
persistent and the only other way to
clear it out would be if you if you use
the uninstall function does it clean up
after itself when it's done yes Yes As
soon as you deactivate uninstall it it
clears all the settings automatically
Okay And that's always been a pet peeve
of mine Sorry When plugins uh don't
clean up after themselves And recently I
started cleaning up databases that are
very old This is where WP plug-in site
is uh sitting right now is I spent a few
hours several weeks ago going through it
with the advanced uh database cleaning
tools to clean up stuff and I'd
forgotten I'd installed and it was you
know causing the site to be at a crawl
because it had left behind all this crap
over the years That's right Yeah And I'm
I'm very well aware of that and I hate
this things too That's why I want to
make sure it's not it's not part of AM
problem especially when you know
creating dozens of uh tables in database
Yeah And and then the oh
man transients in options table is just
killing it's killing website performance
Well there's the other one that is now
killing website performance that not
everyone's aware of It's that I'm trying
to remember the name of the setting the
preload setting and the yes yes in
options yes or no in options yes or no
and even and it started I started
noticing it last year when the um tool
in WordPress um the health tool started
popping up for some websites to saying
your preload options exceeded one gig
and it's like what is this and it's like
okay and the more I dug down into it the
more I realized okay and then You go
through and you see all this stuff and a
lot of it is from over time people
installing uninstalling plugins and it
leaves behind that stuff but that's
still there still being preloaded every
time the database and that causes a lot
of draw down on your website or your
performance That's right it it's just
because autoload uh flag is out is on by
default and a lot of developers just
like hey I just gonna insert the option
in options table
and didn't think through like should it
be false maybe no need to autoload maybe
lazy load it
um yeah u I spent I would say years um
optimizing am so I can proudly say that
it's um there is a wphive.com
they what they do they analyze uh
WordPress plug-in repositories uh
plugins from the WordPress repository
right for for speed for errors um so
they claim that AM is faster than 99% of
the plugins in the take the claim sounds
like a valid one to me I'll take it
always take the win no matter where it
comes from that's right all right we've
got um so we we started off going down
the path of this horror
and how someone paid a massive penalty
for incorrectly updating a page and
losing a homepage So do you want to
elaborate on that one for us a little
bit yeah Yeah Uh I can say I can tell
several stories but that particular one
uh which it happens with a with a
company uh that was in a highly
regulated space So essentially it was a
financial sector Mhm And the the pages
were uh just these pages were for the
credit cards Oh credit cards and deals
and apparently one of the uh one of the
editors actually not authorized editor
It's just just another person that
worked in an organization that were able
to go and update a published page which
WordPress core has the ability to
differentiate between ability to edit
pages and edit published pages But that
capability particular capability was
enabled for for the user and um was it a
mistake likely But essentially what they
did they changed the percentage of the
um it's um what is this um when you get
um when you pay for card and you get
like 5% 3% cash back Cash back Okay Yeah
Yes So it was a card with a wrong cash
back percentage So which means users
that that saw like okay normal cash back
is like 3% but it was like 8% or
something Ah and user like all right
it's a great deal let's sign up Yeah So
there was a many people signed up and
what happened the banknot had to go buy
by by themselves out of that deal but
also they launched a case against their
organization because you know that's
clearly organization mistake they are
doing content for
them in the end of the day insurance got
involved and they paid it out but it was
it was a big chunk of money that was
paid and why because really didn't think
through who can do what and when and how
that capability should not been enabled
for for the lower level lower tier
editors Um so that's one of the stories
Um another interesting story it's one of
my favorite is anyone who is even
watching it right now can go to your own
site and settings general Mh And there
was a there was a dropown default role
that is assigned to newly created
user and that dropdown contained list of
all the roles including administrator
role Right so now uh by default it's a
subscriber role Anyone who is who is
creating an account in a on a site is
assigned to subscriber role But that
dropdown for one for one website was
changed to administrator Oh ouch Yes
Means every new user was an
administrator
automatically It was a high it was a
high uh it was a high traffic website
too Uh so we're talking about hundreds
hundreds of new users had administrator
role and there is no way to find out
because before that happened there was
close to a hundred of administrators on
the site that are like internal
employees right there's no way to find
out who made that change No you you
would have had to have had some tracking
in place long past but then depends on
how long you keep the logs for the
tracking It's like as one of the things
I implemented on uh many of my client
sites after I turned the site over to
them was log tracking so that I know who
does what and there's been a time or two
where it saved my butt because they come
complaining well something broke on the
site and so I haven't touched it in like
a week or two and I look at the log and
say well you did this this and this I'm
sorry I'll fix it but now it's going to
cost you Yep Yep logs are great uh a
great way to to monitor just
retroactively Um one thing I always
advise uh
um my customers and and people that
reach out to me is like if you have the
thing enabled keep in mind that any
administrator can can bypass
If if I'm administrator I have the
ability to install any plugin or modify
any plugin on the site Yeah that's it
It's game over I can bypass any
monitoring any logging I can go
retractively delete any activity that
that was uh that I did because I have
the ability to modify files mean I have
the ability to modify database There is
that But some of the logs one of the log
plug uh I can't remember the name of the
logging plugin I use Now it allows you
to lock it down to one or two specific
users that can even access or see the
file or changes on it
Uh yes Uh well I'm referring to to
ability to modify any files on on a
server Yeah Yeah Yeah
There's all of that All right
So see here We've got all kinds of
interesting
Oh yeah We can talk a lot about these
things It's I haven't even started Well
pick something and run All right Maybe
tell um some other horror stories that
happened um I don't know about six
months ago I mentioned it a few times Um
there was a client of mine who has a
huge website 1.5 million
users on the website very active site
and their homepage got deleted
So the can you imagine that that amount
of users cannot really access the site
because homepage is deleted 404 It shows
404 Um and they like oh we get hacked
uh we got hacked we don't know how it
happened how this privileges were
escalated So I asked okay can you just
give me an export of all the roles and
capabilities on the site and it happened
to be that there are nine custom roles
with ability to delete published pages
Nine with hundreds of users assigned to
those roles So now go find who actually
did did the damage
Could have just a pure mistake It could
be just pure mistake or yeah you
couldn't couldn't find it So yeah
So it sounds like making sure your roles
are set correctly is highly important
Even that is not doesn't give you the
full story because I can show you the
subscriber user with more privileges
than administrator
Subscriber users with more privilege
than administrators Now how does that
happen
because in WordPress you can assign
capabilities to
roles and you can assign capabilities
directly to user account So in database
it well in in a dashboard it shows that
this user is subscriber
However the subscriber can have directly
assigned all the capabilities
So now you wouldn't know it unless you
look directly Yes Unless you look look
directly Even so that doesn't solve
anything because there is a concept of
dynamic capabilities It's a capabilities
that and a lot of plugins not a lot but
I've seen several plugins that do that
They dynamically assign capabilities to
user account as a website loads but they
never persist those capabilities in
database So you cannot see that this
user has these additional capabilities
but they are loaded as a website loads
Okay And so how do you stop people from
getting these dynamically loaded
privileges well that's a that's like a a
needle needle in a stack of hay right
there is some plugin or theme that has a
code implemented that adds those
capabilities So we have to do the full
uh code analysis of your of your all
your files to find that okay and even if
so that doesn't stop anything right
because WordPress core also has the
ability to override or overrule the um
the WP options users and capabilities
option So you can actually load all the
roles and capabilities from elsewhere
not from the database and WordPress core
has that ability you can override it So
essentially you can install a small
plugin few lines of code that overrides
all the roles and capabilities
uh and pretty much hijacks the roles and
capability system So there's a lot of
intricacies There sounded more
intricacies in this than I even thought
was possible I didn't even realize that
all of this exists I knew some of it but
not this much of it Yes there is a lot a
lot that is going on in a WordPress uh
WordPress core uh and even more in in
all these plugins that are available
Well yeah and of course you know the
plugins are you can pretty much do
anything you want with them I've I've
recently started diving into plugins
again myself recently with the advent of
AI to do all my typing for me because my
typing skills
suck which is which has always been my
drawback from creating plugins because
it takes me forever to type something
out and not have a typo in it But I've
been able to in the last several weeks
release four basic plugins that are
there we go that are really quite nice
and plugins that I've mostly been using
them as I'd mostly been throwing in the
the code that turned in the plugins into
the functions file which were just code
snippets to do certain things I you know
what I'm tired of editing the the
functions file or WP
uh config file Let's see if we can throw
a plugin together So me and AI managed
to pull them together and they work
quite quite nicely I've released four of
them in the last several weeks with
three others in the uh queue Yeah Very
nice Very nice Yeah it's really AI is
definitely helpful Yeah it's changing
everything Yeah And how do you think AI
is going to impact this sort of problem
you're having with uh with the security
i mean I saw something today Mullen was
asking about using AI to go after some
of this stuff
Um so you know I think it's it will
impact particularly the security space
in in very positive way because think
about this up to this point up to the um
rollout of generative
AI what we had we had the ability to
analyze a code with a static code
analysis right which essentially you
would have to explicitly code all these
exceptions and rules that look
suspicious
With AI you don't have to do that Um you
can still apply static code analysis to
analyze the code base Uh but you can use
also AI as additional dimension to
deeper deepen understand like what
exactly is going on in a code There is
something that suspicious So it will
positively impact it will make plugins
uh more resilient to all kind of errors
Um it will make them more secure because
the code will be
uh more secure Um will it solve all the
security problems absolutely not No it's
never going to solve everything No
there's security is not an end state
Security is ongoing process It's it's
never it's it's like you know
I can relate to that I've been playing
around on the internet since 96 and I
got serious about it in 99 when I opened
my business and I've watched it go from
the massive open state that it was to a
constant arms race between the people
who are trying to be nefarious and the
people who are trying to protect
everything and you know one year the
nefarious is winning next year the white
hat is winning It's just it's it's a
constant battle and to see what happens
and we can see it in um patch stack in
particular with the stuff that they've
launched in the last year and a half
with their code bounty programs and
everything The number of security flaws
everyone thinks they've gone up Now
they've always been there It's just now
we're finding them you know That's right
I think wasn't too long ago I read about
a a zero day flaw they found in
Microsoft you know and it had been there
for a decade or more Yep You know so
it's like it it they still exist The
security it's like when the code's
originally written it's written to the
best it can be done but somebody else
comes down the pike later and has a
whole new way of thinking and looking at
it and go "Wait a minute I can do this
and bypass that." That's right That's
right And um I you know here's another
interesting thing about particularly
WordPress uh security when it's come to
vulnerabilities in the plugins You know
we all looking into vulnerabilities in
plug-in at as as this is one plugin
there is vulnerability in it right but
there is there are circumstances where
two or more plugins collectively create
one vulnerability
Yeah Um speaking about patch stack they
reached out to me uh I think it was a
couple years ago and they like "Hey we
found a vulnerability in your plug-in uh
it allows to uh read the file uh file
content any file content." And I was
like "Hey wait a minute AM does not read
any file content." And they're like "No
AM allows to create a short code that
invokes a function that is in other
plug-in." And that plugin which happened
to be a word fence and that plugin uh
allows to read any file in a file system
Wow So yeah we are living in a very
dynamic uh ecosystem where not only
isolated plugin but combined multiple
plugins can create a vulnerability Yeah
By combining different things that
people couldn't um or had wouldn't have
thought of Yeah That's interesting
Exactly Oh by the way uh since you you
met Ryan from Influence WP he was here
on the show watching So
I I looked over at my comments and saw
he gave us a clap
We And we we actually living like five
miles 10 miles away from each other Oh
wow That's kind of cool Well Tell him hi
for me He's a Go say hi to his boat He
He He sent me an image about his boat
Yes I will He's a great guy Yeah I'm
definitely going to catch up with Well I
interviewed him uh several weeks ago
I've got an interview with him a few
weeks ago So I thoroughly enjoyed that
That's how I found him through through
your um podcast Oh well that's good I'm
glad to hear that the podcast is uh is
is getting people on board Yes One of
the things I'm trying to do is get more
people on board with all the different
opportunities in WordPress now because
there are way more opportunities than
there were Yeah and I appreciate it a
lot All right Well looks like we're
wrapping up here Got one one thing here
for the end of it Um let's end with some
fun If AM was a superhero what
superpower would it be and how would it
save the day for WordPress users
jeez that is a trick That is a tricky
question
Um a superhero You know I'm not really
into superhero on this
comic button
Um all right You You got me really real
well on that It could be a superhero
Okay Well I I still remember all the
ones from when I was a kid I'm thinking
Hulk myself you know You know what
that's big strong Come on pound your way
through here Let's uh let's block the
path Hulk is a is a is a decent Yeah
this is a decent analogy It's it's
strong It's powerful It's agile Yeah And
uh and it scales up and down It scales
up and down Yeah Depend on what you need
That's right That's right
All right Well thanks Basil I greatly
appreciate your time This has been lots
of fun and I uh like I said this will be
uh out on uh the live stream is already
up and running for people to listen to
and uh the live podcast the podcast
itself will go out in the next 24 hours
along with the show notes All right I'm
going to play my uh outro Don't run away
on me and I will be right back in a
moment or two Thank you John Reminders
for the show All show notes can be found
at
wppluginsz.com And while you're there
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a toz John can also be reached at his
website
johnoverall.com or email him directly
john at
wpro.ca Thanks for joining us and have a
great
day Thanks for listening to the show
This show is copyright by
johnoverall.com So until next time have
yourselves a good morning good afternoon
or good evening wherever you happen to
be out there on the globe
today Sorry about that We're still
streaming by the way for the moment And
we will exit that in a minute
I forgot to share the uh audio with you
so you could hear the jingles and such
that we're playing
I I completely I completely forgot that
it's like I'm still adapting to this
format is what's happening because this
is a new format for me and my brain
works in I need organization for
everything to flow and when the
organization's not there I get scattered
I have found I've discovered coffee
about a month ago and it is actually
teaching me how to uh be more focused
which is surprisingly you know mo all my
life I couldn't stand coughing and all
of a sudden it was good
Yeah it's it's actually a good tool Yeah
it's it's a ritual for me now at this
point the coffee for me is a ritual when
I need to be hyperfocused
That's what it's becoming for me All
right I'm gonna cut our streaming